Placebo Effect

[Marker]

Placebo can be demonstrated to be effective with various drugs and medicines, it creates the illusion of drug consumption to the consumer, but weirdly enough with the same wanted effects. For example There are two groups of people, group A will receive normal 5% beer and group B will drink an alcohol free variant of the same beer. Non of the participants can distinguish between the two beers, which was a requirement for the experiment. After an hour the scientists had the two groups do the typical 'are you drunk' tests and remarkable results showing that the group consuming alcohol free beer acted as if they were drunk. In fact they felt drunk. The cool thing about this is that we can imply this on our smoking/nicotine addiction by setting up similar conditions:

two bottles not labelled, one with nicotine the other not. Both are identical in taste and throat hit, but one is zero nicotine the other is not.

Now simply give it to some person and ask him to keep the bottles for an hour in his pocket. pick up the two bottles and forget about them for a while. When you feel the urge to vape take out a bottle and vape away. I am hoping though the placebo effect one will not be able to tell the difference between the two bottles, if one does not concentrate too hard on it. The problem being that the throat hit and taste must be identical or the same.

It would be great if you could try this out and post your findings in this method. Thanks!

[Jolly]

my brother ran an after hours club in pittsburgh that served non-alcohol and alcohol beer.

at the time i didn't know that there were two taps putting out either or.

that night i drank my face off trying to catch a buzz, i didn't get one and found out the next day why.

another example, i got a sample with an order one time. it tasted great but i must have vaped 3ml in less than 2hrs.. found out later that the sample had zero nic.

sure placebos work, BUT, only on weak minded fools. (that may sound like a prick thing to say but that's what i think)

[Lily]

To the best of my knowledge there is a lot of evidence out there on the placebo effect, but I can assure anyone that I'd know if I was getting 0 nic pretty quickly! Ask my family and friends!

[JagSol]

Placebos are tricky little buggers, js.

[Jkimbo]

Placebo can be demonstrated to be effective with various drugs and medicines, it creates the illusion of drug consumption to the consumer, but weirdly enough with the same wanted effects. For example There are two groups of people, group A will receive normal 5% beer and group B will drink an alcohol free variant of the same beer. Non of the participants can distinguish between the two beers, which was a requirement for the experiment. After an hour the scientists had the two groups do the typical 'are you drunk' tests and remarkable results showing that the group consuming alcohol free beer acted as if they were drunk. In fact they felt drunk. The cool thing about this is that we can imply this on our smoking/nicotine addiction by setting up similar conditions:

two bottles not labelled, one with nicotine the other not. Both are identical in taste and throat hit, but one is zero nicotine the other is not.

Now simply give it to some person and ask him to keep the bottles for an hour in his pocket. pick up the two bottles and forget about them for a while. When you feel the urge to vape take out a bottle and vape away. I am hoping though the placebo effect one will not be able to tell the difference between the two bottles, if one does not concentrate too hard on it. The problem being that the throat hit and taste must be identical or the same.

It would be great if you could try this out and post your findings in this method. Thanks!

nicotine is as strong an addition as heroin, that is medical! You really think a placebo would work on such addicting properties

Placebos works and not very well I might add on lesser addicting agents. The success rate on placebos is very low even on asprin.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Jkimbo

[FTJoe]

nicotine is as strong an addition as heroin, that is medical! You really think a placebo would work on such addicting properties

My having to have a cigarette every hour or more was in my opinion, not a drop in nicotine levels, just the brain remembering how good nic is. That is the nature of an addiction, that is why addicts finish what they have and even return to their addiction after years of sobriety. Nicotine is out of the system in 12 days max, we all know people that go back after years of quitting. If you had a 0 nic substitute that was convincing in regards to smoke, TH, etc., I am convinced many of them would be fooled enough to say, yeah, that's the good stuff, thanx. The problem in my mind is a good 0 nic substitute is not around, so they reach for a cigarette, then they really are getting juiced up all over again.

[FTJoe]

To the best of my knowledge there is a lot of evidence out there on the placebo effect, but I can assure anyone that I'd know if I was getting 0 nic pretty quickly! Ask my family and friends!

I had a pretty bad reaction to the withdrawal as well when I first tried going from 18 or so to 0 (ANGRY MAN). Once I realized that was a huge mistake and started dropping the levels at 2 mg/ml every few weeks or so, it was effortless to go to zero. I highly recommend trying, if it's not effortless then definitely stop and bring it back up a little. Worst is the lack of TH at around 6mg or so, low res helps a lot.

[FTJoe]

sure placebos work, BUT, only on weak minded fools. (that may sound like a pr--- thing to say but that's what i think)

LOL. From what I can tell from the wiki, that is not correct, but you are correct in regards to the way it sounds. ;-)

[Jkimbo]

My having to have a cigarette every hour or more was in my opinion, not a drop in nicotine levels, just the brain remembering how good nic is. That is the nature of an addiction, that is why addicts finish what they have and even return to their addiction after years of sobriety. Nicotine is out of the system in 12 days max, we all know people that go back after years of quitting. If you had a 0 nic substitute that was convincing in regards to smoke, TH, etc., I am convinced many of them would be fooled enough to say, yeah, that's the good stuff, thanx. The problem in my mind is a good 0 nic substitute is not around, so they reach for a cigarette, then they really are getting juiced up all over again.

You are confusing two different types of addictions, psychological and physical. Smoking is both, however the physical portion of it is on the line of heroin.

Both heroin and nicotine produce a state of euphoria in the brain by forcing the brain to release more chemicals that produce that state.

There has been some success in manufacturing man made designer drugs that can fool the brain to thinking it is getting the same chemicals thereby producing even more euphoria. The most potent such drug is meth, hardly a placebo.

Kicking the psychological portion of addition is easy, on the line of stop biting your finger nails. But getting off the physical addiction is much harder because the body NOT THE MIND revolts against you for depriving it of the euphoria it was use to getting.

One other important fact about placebos, never mind that only 20-30% of the population may be subject to them, more importantly, the placebo is very short term and can not be used repeatedly as the body/mind catches on quick, no matter how weak the mind is. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!

The reason people return to smoking or other additions years after it has been completely cleared from the body is of course the mind remembers it very well, right down to the taste and smell even. That part is definitely pyschological and those people are by nature more open to additions of any kind.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Jkimbo

[Kragax]

Placebos have their place, they are mostly used in blind testing for medications where the operator needs to seperate the control group to insure the effect was indeed from the medication and not the persons mind. Even in testing some people on the placebo have a positive effect the test was lookinf for. This is a mind over matter thing. Much like a "contact high". Other than testing or in a few cases a head shrinker there is no ethical use for them. The mind can be your own worst enemy when it comes to addiction. The phyical addiction takes time but can be overcome. It is the mind that usally brings people back to the addiction as the mind misses things that the body doesn't, like throat hit. It always brought me back to analogs. Under stress the mind seeks the comfort of a known response. I am weaning down on Nic and will get off it in anothe 6-8 months but, will probably vape for life as I am more addicted to throat hit and the act of inhaling then I am to the chemical. Godd luck to any that are trying to kick any addiction. I have worked with alcoholics and herion addicts and it can be done. Understand your enemy and your triggers, and stay strong.

[FTJoe]

You are confusing two different types of addictions, psychological and physical. Smoking is both, however the physical portion of it is on the line of heroin.

Both heroin and nicotine produce a state of euphoria in the brain by forcing the brain to release more chemicals that produce that state.

There has been some success in manufacturing man made designer drugs that can fool the brain to thinking it is getting the same chemicals thereby producing even more euphoria. The most potent such drug is meth, hardly a placebo.

Kicking the psychological portion of addition is easy, on the line of stop biting your finger nails. But getting off the physical addiction is much harder because the body NOT THE MIND revolts against you for depriving it of the euphoria it was use to getting.

One other important fact about placebos, never mind that only 20-30% of the population may be subject to them, more importantly, the placebo is very short term and can not be used repeatedly as the body/mind catches on quick, no matter how weak the mind is. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!

The reason people return to smoking or other additions years after it has been completely cleared from the body is of course the mind remembers it very well, right down to the taste and smell even. That part is definitely pyschological and those people are by nature more open to additions of any kind.

I don't believe I am confused. Your summary was my point, people returning to the addiction do so because the mind says to. As I believe jeff pointed out in a more rambunctious area of the forum, there is a certain re-wiring of the brain that takes place with an addict, so the only confusing area of discussion might be what constitutes the physical aspect of the psychological addiction. My point is, in regards to most drugs, the physical aspects of the drug (heroin and nicotine have a short half-life) are usually out of the system within days, I consider that the "physical" addiction. The desire to do it again I consider the psychological addiction and is very strong indeed. I believe the brain is simply desiring to go back to that state it still remembers, its not withdrawal at that point in time, its a desire to return to that state. Is this the nature of the addictive mind, sure. But that is who we are talking about, right? I was a smoker for 30+ years and tried everything to quit. I think except for the weekend smokers, you would be hard pressed to find a full time smoker who is not an addict. Some may not like that, but if they aren't an addict prone to the mental aspects of the addiction then they really should try to get to 0 and be done with it all.

So simply put, I've seen many a smoker go back after weeks/months/years of being quit. This means the mind is playing a very important role in the addiction and shouldn't be dismissed as not able to be fooled by a placebo, its not as smart as you think!! ;-)

[Jkimbo]

I don't believe I am confused. Your summary was my point, people returning to the addiction do so because the mind says to. As I believe jeff pointed out in a more rambunctious area of the forum, there is a certain re-wiring of the brain that takes place with an addict, so the only confusing area of discussion might be what constitutes the physical aspect of the psychological addiction. My point is, in regards to most drugs, the physical aspects of the drug (heroin and nicotine have a short half-life) are usually out of the system within days, I consider that the "physical" addiction. The desire to do it again I consider the psychological addiction and is very strong indeed. I believe the brain is simply desiring to go back to that state it still remembers, its not withdrawal at that point in time, its a desire to return to that state. Is this the nature of the addictive mind, sure. But that is who we are talking about, right? I was a smoker for 30+ years and tried everything to quit. I think except for the weekend smokers, you would be hard pressed to find a full time smoker who is not an addict. Some may not like that, but if they aren't an addict prone to the mental aspects of the addiction then they really should try to get to 0 and be done with it all.

So simply put, I've seen many a smoker go back after weeks/months/years of being quit. This means the mind is playing a very important role in the addiction and shouldn't be dismissed as not able to be fooled by a placebo, its not as smart as you think!! ;-)

Placebos are only good for very short term, you can not continue to fool the mind and body with a placebo. And again, only a small percentage can be deceived by a placebo in the first place.

We are in agreement with the reason why people return to addictions.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Jkimbo

[FTJoe]

I think we are just talking two different things here. I know what you are saying, if you tell someone who is actively smoking/vaping with nic that a 0nic juice has nic, it probably will work until they go through withdrawal, then watch out. My only point is, I believe vaping 0 nic would help some of the folks who return after having successfully given up smoking/nicotine. I disagree the physical addiction is the tough one to break after seeing so many folks actually get rid of the drug from their system to only go back. The mental one is a tough one as well but I think people could get past those stress points and satisfy the brain by vaping 0mg, right now a smoker can't choose a 0mg analogue so they are physically addicted all over again when they succumb to the mental pull.

Having said that, I never made it more than four days I think in any quit scenario. Now I can go days (and I assume weeks or forever) without even vaping. Yes my brain still says reach for something when I'm under stress etc, if I have my ego with me, great, if not, no big deal either. I like vaping, just don't have to these days.