Maximum Nic Strength 36Mg

[Jeffb]

I just read that ECF will not allow their advertising suppliers to advertise any nic juice higher than 36mg. What are your thoughts on this? Obviously they can do what they want on their own forum, thats not the issue. Do you think it was the right decision?

[Ofortuna]

here is my 2 cents...

no one has the right to tell people what to vape on. i myself am not a fan or will i ever recommend juice higher than 36mg, but that is my opinion. there is also an economical use for higher nic liquid by cutting it with VG/PG and making a bottle last longer.

forums should not censor or remove vendors for selling whatever is allowable to sell. there are no "rules" against the sale of higher nic juice and forum should not take it upon themselves to regulate a suppliers sales. even though quite a few people do not agree with the use of higher nic levels, it is not our place to tell them what to do.

[SickDripzz]

I believe it is the consumers decision to conclude if anything over 36mg nicotine is too much for them. Liquid > 36mg has more uses/applications than liquid < 36mg. With that said, I strongly disagree with ECF's decision to restrict suppliers advertising e liquid over 36mg.

[Christopher]

I agree with them to be honest. I have yet to censor it here at Vapor Talk but some suppliers are willing to sell just about anything to consumers for a buck. ECF is also the front line for information at the moment. I can just here the lawyers now "Your forum supports users buying 2 gallon jugs of poison?"

E Liquid in bottles is already going to be the first thing the FDA goes after should E Cigarettes ever become approved. It's only a matter of time before one idiot screws it up for everyone by leaving a giant bottle of liquid on the table right in front of the kids. Or heck ends up spilling it on himself.

There are already cases in which children have managed to down a bottle of E Liquid. One supplier had Poison Control on the phone and they where not to happy. The kid is lucky to have lived.

I don't mean to sound as bad as the FDA but I question some of the liquid experiments vapers delve into.

But I mean where does this all end? How much E Liquid do you REALLY need? I mean seriously. People are buying liquid by the gallon to mix? Do you purchase pounds of flavor to make a cupcake? Since when did everyone become chemists? This is some NASTY stuff. I spilled 30ml on myself and let me tell you, it sucks. I mean IT REALLY doesn't feel good. Thus the reason I've never allowed anything higher than 10ml in my store. (For the new users it's not to make more money, we offer 30ml via 10ml bottles at a discount)

I think it's great that we've found vaping, I think it's great that we've left analogs. But I think some of us have forgotten our way and have just jumped off the deep end.

Just my 2 cents Great topic though!

[SickDripzz]

I agree with them to be honest. I have yet to censor it here at Vapor Talk but some suppliers are willing to sell just about anything to consumers for a buck. ECF is also the front line for information at the moment. I can just here the lawyers now "Your forum supports users buying 2 gallon jugs of poison?"

E Liquid in bottles is already going to be the first thing the FDA goes after should E Cigarettes ever become approved. It's only a matter of time before one idiot screws it up for everyone by leaving a giant bottle of liquid on the table right in front of the kids. Or heck ends up spilling it on himself.

There are already cases in which children have managed to down a bottle of E Liquid. One supplier had Poison Control on the phone and they where not to happy. The kid is lucky to have lived.

I don't mean to sound as bad as the FDA but I question some of the liquid experiments vapers delve into.

But I mean where does this all end? How much E Liquid do you REALLY need? I mean seriously. People are buying liquid by the gallon to mix? Do you purchase pounds of flavor to make a cupcake? Since when did everyone become chemists? This is some NASTY stuff. I spilled 30ml on myself and let me tell you, it sucks. I mean IT REALLY doesn't feel good. Thus the reason I've never allowed anything higher than 10ml in my store. (For the new users it's not to make more money, we offer 30ml via 10ml bottles at a discount)

I think it's great that we've found vaping, I think it's great that we've left analogs. But I think some of us have forgotten our way and have just jumped off the deep end.

Just my 2 cents Great topic though!

Well in a perfect world, huge quantities of high nic liquid would be great, but stepping in your shoes Chris, it is a cruel and unforgiving world, a place filled with ignorance and disbelief. I do agree with your perspective, some idiot can very well screw it up for all of us, and potentially screw things up really bad for himself... It's all about keeping things in moderation with thy self; many are uncapable/struggle with this feat. I guess I was coming from a general consumers perspective moreso than an overall saftey and regulation standpoint.

[Christopher]

Yea and I totally understand that. It's definitely a frustrating situation. I know personally if I wasn't a supplier and didn't see things from a supplier view I'd probably feel the same way. From a legality stand point it can be tough trying to balance things out. After all we live in a society where you can sue for spilling hot coffee on yourself. Speaking of which, time for some more Java

[Kragax]

I can understand need for caution, we are after all dealing with a fairly nasty substance. I never had any intention of getting into the manufacture of juice. However with a potential ban in New York I iwll do whatever I have to to ensure my supply. I have ordered some high strength base and will have to learn. It also gives me the ability to mix and maintain a step down program that is comfortable for me. I will continue to buy from my usual suppliers for now. But should the need arise I will not be cut short or off guard. Now, I work as a manufacturing engineer and fine measurement is part of my training, I also have had some chemistry so Im going into this totally blind. But I know a lot of people that have the potential to harm or cause harm simply by not having the respect for the chemicals they are using. That being said, those of us that reload or own ammunition for the the shooting sports know about securing potentally dangerious materials.

I have in the past had a forum on a website of my own, a forum is private property and I hate the idea of anyone trying to tell me what to do with my own property so the choice is totally up to the owner/s, and to Chris' point there is the potential for legal problems. Luckily for me the information I needed was avaliable from the wonderful people on this forum. (I love it here) But it could also be researched out on the net. I hate control but, I fear litigation. I also fear the people that would try to control our freedoms "for our own good". VAPE ON!!!!

[Brian]

Does this apply to the supporting supplier's forum? For example, a vendor can't post that he sells 100mg nic in a thread in his section of the forum?

[Christopher]

On ECF yes that is correct. The supplier is welcome to sell liquid above 36mg but cannot post or advertise it on ECF. As for Vapor Talk so long as it's done in the suppliers forum I don't have an issue with it. Same goes for the open suppliers area. But as with anything it's by far at your own risk.

[ddavelarsen]

I'll weigh in on this one. My feeling is that ECF has every right to manage what its vendors represent to customers on their forum. However, they don't have the right to tell those vendors what they're allowed to sell. A generally free economy is what provides for the standard of living Americans enjoy.

But personally I am totally willing to assume whatever risk is necessary to provide for my nicotine in the event of a ban; and to that end, I'm stocking up nic base until I have at least a two-year supply. Then, I'm going to start deriving my own nicotine from tobacco. I have a habit of making many of the things I use everyday - knives, aftershave, beer, wine, whatever. That's generally because i) I can't buy some of the things I want or ii) I can make better stuff than I could buy. I've never built a still, but that's to be one of my retirement projects. I will make fine whiskey! I've found that I can learn most anything I need to, to provide for my family.

I'm an American; no one needs to protect me from myself - or from anyone else. I'm responsible for my own wellbeing and trust me -- I'm proactive about that. I disrespect fear; I honor caution. And preparedness.

[Burn]

I don't have an issue with the ECF policy at all. I do believe that the e-cig industry DOES need regulation and standards. I would also submit that not having regulations in this area is one of this industry's greatest vulnerabilities. Regulation is often considered oppressive but in fact, it is more often protective of the industry/consumer. (Energy in Cali, anyone?)

A responsible community will try to set standards and this is what I believe ECF is doing. Do not be desensitized by the fact you work with e-juice every day. The base is certainly a harmful poison and can be very dangerous.

All it takes is one overdose of a minor or god forbid, someone using straight liquid nicotine as a poison to kill someone/thing and this industry would become a major target. I firmly believe that consumer irresponsibility or nefarious acts are a far bigger threat to this industry than the ignorance of politicians.

[FTJoe]

I'm an American; no one needs to protect me from myself - or from anyone else.

Lawyers make tons of money based on that philosophy. Not saying you would, but plenty of people hurt themselves and then want someone to blame. That seems to be the American way, been that way for decades.

Christopher - as bad as the FDA? LOL. Being responsible is not bad...

[stubear62]

Hey Everyone,

As Jeff said, ECF does have the ruling on that nothing higher than 36mg be sold by suppliers. Also, suppliers there may not advertise higher than 36mg on their forums either.

I am pasting a clip from ECF as to why this is being done, I hope that I'm allowed to do this here. Sorry if I'm not, I just feel that this should be added:

"This is because:

- there is an increased risk of injury due to spillage on the skin, or to children, with stronger eliquids

- there is a US law against postage of nicotine liquids of strength just above this, and we do not want to be seen to encourage people to evade this

- the max strength needed by retail customers for mixing is 36mg since it is rare to vape at over 30mg

It means that in public suppliers' forums no mention can be made of nic liquids stronger than this, from now on.

This does not affect commercial deals in private supplier forums because the trade need to have stronger liquids for bulk mixing. They have to find some way of shipping it though as US post etc is not legal.

It does not affect what suppliers have on their own sites as we cannot control the content of other sites."

Now, I myself do / did buy higher nic for personal usage and due to me having my medical problems (herniated disc in back, severely swollen legs and a very mild heart attack in July of '09) will not be doing so anymore. Not because of this on ecf, but because of an incident that recently happened to me. I dropped a 125ml bottle of 125mg liquid in my kitchen due to the fact that since august (actually since my heart attack) I have been losing the feelings in my left hand. Now due to the fact that I have fallen a number of times in the shower due to my back and legs and not being able to controll my balance anymore (yes it is getting worse) I believe now I have injured my neck. That is now the ruling of my Dr's due to me also losing the usage of my right hand. As such, I hand tried to turn, holding that bottle of nic, losing the feeling in my right hand and dropping that bottle.

Well, I am thankful that my dogs were outside and I had my windows open already. If I didn't, I might have had a worse time trying to clean up the mess.

Myself, I will never get anything higher than 60mg or even 48mg as there is no reason to get anything higher than that. If you need anything higher than that, it better be to kill insects, LOL. (FDA not included) Seriously, I see where they are comming from and even though a lot of others feel its not right for them to do this, I for one think its the best for everyone.

I started out vaping 24mg and it really didn't help, went to 36mg and then 48 as the highest I would vape.. Got one hell of a 'buzz' from the 48mg. I went back down to 36 and have been there for a while. I only use that when my days just suck real bad.. I use 28 to 32mg on a daily basis and @ times lower.

But, I still feel that this is the correct way for them to handle their forum if they so choose.

I guess I rambled on for way too long, just hope others understand why ecf has taken the stand they have..

I miss you all, as VTF has been my Family away from Family and I will see you soon!

Vape On!

I forgot to add:

Christopher? You, my man, can never be like the FDA! A Big Brother, Yes...LOL (in a GOOD way, of course)

Edited April 29, 2010 by stubear62

[Jeffb]

Thanks for adding that Stu. Good to see you again. Hope ECF is treating you good. For those of you that don't know, Stu is a moderator over at ECF now.

[ddavelarsen]

Lawyers make tons of money based on that philosophy. Not saying you would, but plenty of people hurt themselves and then want someone to blame. That seems to be the American way, been that way for decades.

No - lawyers make tons of money because of people who do not assume personal responsibility.

[FTJoe]

No - lawyers make tons of money because of people who do not assume personal responsibility.

That's really my point, they don't after the "incident". Many say they want the responsibility and the government should not dictate things...then they do something stupid and they want money or are told they can get some. So now all of a sudden they say they didn't know it was that bad, the company should never have let them have it, waaaaaah. Not saying you by any means, just a another generally pessimistic observation.

[GDub]

I think the handling of high strength nicotine base can be dangerous when attempted by anyone without the proper equipment and knowledge. That being said I personally don't mind dealing with it because I have the proper equipment along with a good knowledge of how to handle it safely, not to mention I don't have kids and my cats can't open my pantry where I keep my DIY e-juice supplies. The amount of money you can save by mixing your own juice is pretty astounding.

[gnerd]

Lawyers make tons of money based on that philosophy. Not saying you would, but plenty of people hurt themselves and then want someone to blame. That seems to be the American way, been that way for decades.

Christopher - as bad as the FDA? LOL. Being responsible is not bad...

My brother and I were raised to be independent thinkers, to be self-sufficient, and to accept responsibility for our own actions. We resent government intrusion in our lives, and deeply resent the current litigious state of American culture. We think people should educate themselves before engaging in any potentially hazardous activity, and barring that, stand up as adults and take their lumps for their own stupid behavior. We don't feel responsible in the slightest for people who fail to conduct themselves with a modicum of common sense, and don't expect to be held accountable for them. Just my two cents.

[FTJoe]

My brother and I were raised to be independent thinkers, to be self-sufficient, and to accept responsibility for our own actions. We resent government intrusion in our lives, and deeply resent the current litigious state of American culture. We think people should educate themselves before engaging in any potentially hazardous activity, and barring that, stand up as adults and take their lumps for their own stupid behavior. We don't feel responsible in the slightest for people who fail to conduct themselves with a modicum of common sense, and don't expect to be held accountable for them. Just my two cents.

Very nicely stated. As I've said before, there is something elegant about natural selection, yet we as a society seem to do our best to protect if not even promote the opposite. Anyway, my bad for getting us off topic other than to point out I think the ban is important if for no other reason than to remove liability. I'm not suggesting we ban hi nic, I just understand the reason to ban the advertising.

Edited April 29, 2010 by FTJoe

[ddavelarsen]

Well said Bro. FTJoe I think we're generally on the same page. Personally though, I will deeply resent having my options restricted because we live in a litigous society or the nanny govt thinks I'm too stupid to take care of myself (or that others are). Anyway, it's because of these realities that I'm prepared to learn how to derive my own nic. Don't worry - I'll never share it with anyone else! (Just to be sure they don't sue me out of my home when they do something stupid.)

I still do believe that ECF has every right to describe how their forum can be used. Same goes for VT! I'll try my best to abide by the rules and general courtesy in this or any public venue.

[nana]

Beautifully said, gnerd! I couldn't agree more.

I also believe that each forum has the right to do as they please. I have no arguments on the advertising thing at all.

[SickDripzz]

Hey Everyone,

As Jeff said, ECF does have the ruling on that nothing higher than 36mg be sold by suppliers. Also, suppliers there may not advertise higher than 36mg on their forums either.

I am pasting a clip from ECF as to why this is being done, I hope that I'm allowed to do this here. Sorry if I'm not, I just feel that this should be added:

"This is because:

- there is an increased risk of injury due to spillage on the skin, or to children, with stronger eliquids

- there is a US law against postage of nicotine liquids of strength just above this, and we do not want to be seen to encourage people to evade this

- the max strength needed by retail customers for mixing is 36mg since it is rare to vape at over 30mg

It means that in public suppliers' forums no mention can be made of nic liquids stronger than this, from now on.

This does not affect commercial deals in private supplier forums because the trade need to have stronger liquids for bulk mixing. They have to find some way of shipping it though as US post etc is not legal.

It does not affect what suppliers have on their own sites as we cannot control the content of other sites."

Now, I myself do / did buy higher nic for personal usage and due to me having my medical problems (herniated disc in back, severely swollen legs and a very mild heart attack in July of '09) will not be doing so anymore. Not because of this on ecf, but because of an incident that recently happened to me. I dropped a 125ml bottle of 125mg liquid in my kitchen due to the fact that since august (actually since my heart attack) I have been losing the feelings in my left hand. Now due to the fact that I have fallen a number of times in the shower due to my back and legs and not being able to controll my balance anymore (yes it is getting worse) I believe now I have injured my neck. That is now the ruling of my Dr's due to me also losing the usage of my right hand. As such, I hand tried to turn, holding that bottle of nic, losing the feeling in my right hand and dropping that bottle.

Well, I am thankful that my dogs were outside and I had my windows open already. If I didn't, I might have had a worse time trying to clean up the mess.

Myself, I will never get anything higher than 60mg or even 48mg as there is no reason to get anything higher than that. If you need anything higher than that, it better be to kill insects, LOL. (FDA not included) Seriously, I see where they are comming from and even though a lot of others feel its not right for them to do this, I for one think its the best for everyone.

I started out vaping 24mg and it really didn't help, went to 36mg and then 48 as the highest I would vape.. Got one hell of a 'buzz' from the 48mg. I went back down to 36 and have been there for a while. I only use that when my days just suck real bad.. I use 28 to 32mg on a daily basis and @ times lower.

But, I still feel that this is the correct way for them to handle their forum if they so choose.

I guess I rambled on for way too long, just hope others understand why ecf has taken the stand they have..

I miss you all, as VTF has been my Family away from Family and I will see you soon!

Vape On!

I forgot to add:

Christopher? You, my man, can never be like the FDA! A Big Brother, Yes...LOL (in a GOOD way, of course)

Dang Stu... Hang in there, geeze you described that pretty well, brought the urgency out of your position.

And congrats on moderator position at ECF.