Test Positive For Nicotine? Fired!

[abitmorevodka]

Here's another hospital who will not hire nicotine users and will fire existing employees who use nicotine: article link here. I thought you'd want to know.

This is a troubling trend, to say the least. Now it's the hospitals, you know companies will be following shortly. With national healthcare looming, it could eventually work it's way down to the individual.

If nicotine in and of itself is not harmful, health insurers and employers still test for nicotine only in order to determine whether or not a person is a smoker. What if that person does NOT smoke cigarettes, but ingests/absorbs nicotine in some other fashion? How does that person raise medical costs for the company? (Unless things have changed in the last few years, one was not asked questions such as "Are you a smoker?" when signing up for a GROUP policy...) As for an individual policy, it doesn't matter if you've not smoked a real cigarette in six months or so, if you go to your insurer and tell them you're no longer a smoker and would like your rates reduced, please, they will test you for the presence of nicotine only. You will not get a rate reduction.

Is there any other way to test someone to see whether or not they're a smoker without just testing for nicotine?

[SickDripzz]

Here is what I know about this topic:

Smoking cigarettes effects the human oxygen and blood pressure levels.

Long term smoking makes the blood in the human body thicken, allowing for less energy to be distributed throughout the body, leading to cold hands/feet, loss of hair, and skin distortion.

Cigarettes contain hundreds of toxins/chemicals, bacteria will develope in the body (lungs most likely) from some of these toxins/chemicals. The bacteria will run its course naturally (which may be forever). These types bacteria all have common ground with eachother so a skilled doctor knowing what to look for could pursue this cause.

So... a doctor could check your oxygen and blood pressure levels to determine if you smoke.

A doctor could check the concentration levels of your blood to determine if you smoke.

A doctor could get creative and search your blood for these bacteria living in your body to determine if you smoke.

I'm sure there are many other methods to determine if one is a smoker or not, but these are a few methods that I know of.

Nicotine can be found in the blood and in urine FYI.

[FTJoe]

My opinion is until e-cigs become a safe alternative as recognized by the FDA, the nicotine test will be all there is. We know in our hearts this is safer, but you'll never make a legal argument until it's studied. Of course, I see more and more people habitually using nicotine gum instead of smoking, but I think the gum is only recognized as a stop smoking aid. So my point is (and I know it sucks), they only need to test for nicotine to determine you are indeed a smoker and/or user of nicotine. I can't think of an approved reason you would have nicotine in your system.

[abitmorevodka]

Here is what I know about this topic:

Smoking cigarettes effects the human oxygen and blood pressure levels.

Long term smoking makes the blood in the human body thicken, allowing for less energy to be distributed throughout the body, leading to cold hands/feet, loss of hair, and skin distortion.

Cigarettes contain hundreds of toxins/chemicals, bacteria will develope in the body (lungs most likely) from some of these toxins/chemicals. The bacteria will run its course naturally (which may be forever). These types bacteria all have common ground with eachother so a skilled doctor knowing what to look for could pursue this cause.

So... a doctor could check your oxygen and blood pressure levels to determine if you smoke.

A doctor could check the concentration levels of your blood to determine if you smoke.

A doctor could get creative and search your blood for these bacteria living in your body to determine if you smoke.

I'm sure there are many other methods to determine if one is a smoker or not, but these are a few methods that I know of.

Nicotine can be found in the blood and in urine FYI.

(Not arguing with you, just thinking out loud...) Higher levels of nicotine can cause a lot of those same symptoms, much like caffeine or many cold meds, etc. I'm just wondering if they could test for some of the other chemicals (at roughly the same price as a nic-check), to see if someone is actually smoking tobacco.

If I'm ONLY vaping or using some form of NRT, (i.e., not getting any of the "bad stuff" I'd be getting if I were smoking), I'm not doing anything to put myself at a higher risk for the usual smoking-related diseases. I'd like to see a comparison done between, say vaping or using a nicotine gum, and spending a lot of time in the sun or in a tanning bed, for instance. But, I digress...

If I'm only using nicotine why should an employer not hire me or fire me for doing so if I'm not posing a significant risk to myself or others? And/or, why should I have to keep paying a higher insurance premium if I'm no longer a smoker? Why am I yappin' when I should be going to bed? Probably not making a bit of sense, LOL...

[SickDripzz]

(Not arguing with you, just thinking out loud...) Higher levels of nicotine can cause a lot of those same symptoms, much like caffeine or many cold meds, etc. I'm just wondering if they could test for some of the other chemicals (at roughly the same price as a nic-check), to see if someone is actually smoking tobacco.

If I'm ONLY vaping or using some form of NRT, (i.e., not getting any of the "bad stuff" I'd be getting if I were smoking), I'm not doing anything to put myself at a higher risk for the usual smoking-related diseases. I'd like to see a comparison done between, say vaping or using a nicotine gum, and spending a lot of time in the sun or in a tanning bed, for instance. But, I digress...

If I'm only using nicotine why should an employer not hire me or fire me for doing so if I'm not posing a significant risk to myself or others? And/or, why should I have to keep paying a higher insurance premium if I'm no longer a smoker? Why am I yappin' when I should be going to bed? Probably not making a bit of sense, LOL...

Haha my bed time passed a few hours ago... And I think I'll be awake until dawn tomorrow... Where's my damn breakfast burrito, im starting to feel the tiredness myself

We need some kind of doctor in here who can explain this stuff to us with some first hand experience...

[jmhester]

Wow, does this make no sense at all or what? OK, our fearless leader has pushed through a health care bill, whether you agree or disagree with it, that is going to overload an already overburdened health care system like never before. There is already a deficit of health care professional in nearly every market in this country. And now these idiots are testing for nic when, just from my personal observation, a large number of health care professionals smoke. Freaking brilliant!

Oh, and I don't have any knowledge of beating a nic test but I can tell you from "friends" that beating the, shall we say "performance enhancing medications" test, for athletics isn't that tough. And those tests are way more complex than the standard workplace drug screens. So I'm sure with a bit of research it could be easily done.

But my main point is that we don't have enough health care professionals to go around now. Can you imagine how bad it's going to be when all the hospitals start testing for smokers?

[FTJoe]

If I'm ONLY vaping or using some form of NRT, (i.e., not getting any of the "bad stuff" I'd be getting if I were smoking), I'm not doing anything to put myself at a higher risk for the usual smoking-related diseases. I'd like to see a comparison done between, say vaping or using a nicotine gum, and

Hi - you make great common sense arguments but they don't cut it without a study. An NRT as far as I know is meant as a quit smoking aid, at least they all were when I was doing them. No one has done a study that I know of to say, people are better off with just nicotine than smoking. I've made the argument before, even in a perfect world, when you have a drug you have to have a label, pregnant women need to know not to use, etc. For that you need a study, as far as I know, the FDA ain't going to pay for it. So my point is I just don't see an insurance company (an employer might) saying they understand and acknowledge the difference. And that's a perfect world where no one is worried about cutting into their sales or people skipping out on sin taxes.

[MorisatoIncorporated]

"I can't think of an approved reason you would have nicotine in your system."

Well I can think of a few plants with naturally occuring nicotine most people eat. potatoes, tomatoes, eggplant and sweet peppers. If consumed in enough quantity it's possible to find it in a drug screen. I eat way too many tomatoes.

[mcquinn]

The hospital I work at went tobacco free not just smoke free.The reasoning is we all know about smoking ,dipping and chewing cause mouth ,throat and digestive tract cancers and other health problems like ulcers,sniffing snuff causes nasal ,throat and digestive cancers and other ailments.A person could just put some Nicorette tabs in your pocket and if you test positive for nicotine just say you are quitting and it must be the Nicorette.They so far have accepted my vaping as an honest attempt at quitting smoking .But I am actually trying to quit and get off of nicotine alltogether,not just beat the system.Nicotine is not really as harmless as we like to say it is .It is addictive and a stimulant .Yes so is caffine but I have not found high level caffiene liquid yet.I have seen all kinds of formulas to determine how much nicotine we are actually consuming but I think it is mostly guess and by golly.End of Rant.Enjoy while you can.

[FTJoe]

good luck mcquinn - it can be done. Sounds like your employer is at least reasonable. I think to be fair, someone is going to open themselves up to a lawsuit in being so rigid about it, especially if they really are trying to quit.

[mcquinn]

We will have to see what happens in November as I am afraid we don't have many allies in the goverenment at the moment.Worst case the Democrats just push through as much liberal nonsense as they can before they lose the power.

[FTJoe]

We will have to see what happens in November as I am afraid we don't have many allies in the goverenment at the moment.Worst case the Democrats just push through as much liberal nonsense as they can before they lose the power.

Sorry - my tin foil hat says it doesn't matter who seems in charge, there is a ruling elite that is always in charge.

[mcquinn]

Yes but some seem to like the idea of having people to pay taxes so they can spend the money ,the present administration doesn't seem to consider that if no one is working or consuming taxable items there is not going to be any money to spend.I don't know how many childrens health insurances there are that is supposed to be paid for by taxes on ciggerettes ,but I do know if you force people to quit paying the tax then you have another unfunded program that is not helping anyone.

[SickDripzz]

Sorry - my tin foil hat says it doesn't matter who seems in charge, there is a ruling elite that is always in charge.

Ding ding ding we have a winner! I can't agree with you more about our government... everything is part of a bigger picture hidden by deception.

[FTJoe]

Yes but some seem to like the idea of having people to pay taxes so they can spend the money ,the present administration doesn't seem to consider that if no one is working or consuming taxable items there is not going to be any money to spend.I don't know how many childrens health insurances there are that is supposed to be paid for by taxes on ciggerettes ,but I do know if you force people to quit paying the tax then you have another unfunded program that is not helping anyone.

O/T alert!!! You are correct. But never forget the current horrible situation basically started with Clinton (arguably Reagan), was driven to it's peak with Bush and the repubs and amazingly for all their talk, the dems are making it worse. Entities like Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan are in charge, seems rather obvious actually in retrospect. More to your point, both parties were spenders, just on different things. I can't stand the fact that the latest thing passed is a boon to Pharma and insurance. Socialism? I don't think so, big corps are still riding high, on the backs of (as you point out) less and less taxpaying citizens.

Apologies, this is me at a cocktail party as well...not much fun.

[VapeFiend]

Caffeine is a little more dangerous than you might think. It's very similar to nicotine and is a mind altering substance. Caffeine and nicotine withdrawal have almost identical symptoms. Caffeine overdose is not as dangerous as nicotine overdose, but both can be fatal. I remember doing a research paper on mind altering substances, and most sources actually cited caffeine as the biggest problem drug in modern society. (More people addicted to caffeine than opiates, methamphetamine, alcohol, and crack combined)

So back on topic, if they are going to test for nicotine it would only be fair that they test for caffeine too... especially with surgeons as both drugs can cause tremors and inhibit motor function. This would be utterly ridiculous, however, since you cannot go into ANY hospital and not see a coffee pot/vending machine/soda machine. The hypocrites that established the nicotine policy would be quick to dismiss it if a caffeine screening policy were suggested or implemented.

Even when I smoked real cigarettes I thought smoking should be banned from hospitals, restaurants, and schools, out of consideration for non-smokers' health. Smoking in your own home and abstaining while you are on those properties is every bit your right, and an employer has no business telling you otherwise. I mean, if you went to these people's house and watched their every move, you would find that they probably consume alcohol, watch dirty movies, bake cookies in the nude, w/e... and they have every right to do that, as long as it's in their house. What makes using nicotine different?

[fusiontech357]

Wow i have to say, all of you have valid points . i'm glued to this topic.

[FTJoe]

What makes using nicotine different?

Not much really, but when ingested as a result of smoking you will have a higher insurance risk and premiums (life and health), an employee out more than others due to sickness, etc. As I think covered earlier, its a matter of acceptance, nicotine is smoking (or and unapproved substitution).

[adogabird2cats]

I quit smoking for 5 years at one period, and continued chewing nicorette. For both my health insurance and life insurance screens I was rated a "smoker" even though I hadn't had a cigarette in years, and I pay for both accordingly.

[Uma]

Well for pete's sake. What's next on their agendas? Ban or slaughter any and all homosapians who ever touched a nicotine product?

That's what it is... is slaughter. When a person can't work or live or feed their family due to someone elses self righteous behavior...

::: said a bit, now I bow out not so gracefully before I really get to ranting ::::

[VapeFiend]

The insurance rates are another matter. You can't force employees to take blood tests to check cholesterol levels, even though LDL can cause hypertension, stroke, CHF, etc. Are companies going to require their employees to eat an approved diet too? Are they going to require them to take antihyperlipidemics? Smoking is definitely a choice, but so is eating junk food that's high in cholesterol. Again, what is the difference here? And yes, insurance rates do increase if one is obese.

[jmhester]

Do your rates go up if you are obese? I didn't know that but our insurance company keeps bugging us to do a "free" health screen. They call constantly and send stuff through the mail. My thoughts are that they plan on jacking up the rates to the company based on health profiles. That's just a guess but if it feels wrong, it probably is. We are not obese but I bet they would hold vaping against you. What do you guys think?

[FTJoe]

The insurance rates are another matter. You can't force employees to take blood tests to check cholesterol levels, even though LDL can cause hypertension, stroke, CHF, etc. Are companies going to require their employees to eat an approved diet too? Are they going to require them to take antihyperlipidemics? Smoking is definitely a choice, but so is eating junk food that's high in cholesterol. Again, what is the difference here? And yes, insurance rates do increase if one is obese.

Some obesity is not by choice.