Anybody Ever Tried This?

[Tektronik]

Great info! Thanks a million!

You're the resident battery SME (subject matter expert).

Yes I've noticed that flicker on my 510 charger when I first got it too. I used to be worried about leaving them on the charger overnight for fear of losing battery life, but I guess it was I who was "conditioned" by the bad experiences with leaving batteries on chargers too long. So, then why did my laptop battery go from 4 hours of running time to 45 minutes? I used to believe that it was because I'd leave it hooked up to the wall all the time and constantly charging and that would kill it. My lenovo laptop even had a battery maintenance feature where it would charge all the way, run it down and then charge back up all the way when you told it to "re-condition" the battery. Even though it was a Li-Ion battery.

Another thing: i suppose that the voltage check on the charger is a good thing because those OEM 510 batteries don't have protection on them, but what about the 14500 batteries and all others with the PCB on it? Does the charger that we use for them do the check or does the PCB handle the cut-off? Is it both? I know your BB uses the 14500 as does my VP2. I have that single battery charger that can charge several different models of 3.7 volt batts. If both, than do you think that dual redundant check is even necessary?

[Brandon]

I used to be worried about leaving them on the charger overnight for fear of losing battery life..... So, then why did my laptop battery go from 4 hours of running time to 45 minutes? I used to believe that it was because I'd leave it hooked up to the wall all the time and constantly charging and that would kill it.

An excerpt from a PM : Even lithium cells of any lithium chemistry eventually begin to breakdown. The whole principle of a rechargeable cell is based around a metal being decomposed into an oxide which releases electrons; then reversing the process by applying electrons back into the metal to convert the oxides back into the natural form of the metal. But it's not perfect. Not all of the molecules that are oxidized are able to be converted back into their original state. So eventually more and more molecules can't be broken back into the original metal. Thus overtime you'll see the cell's capacity decrease and decrease until its capacity is crap compared to what it was when it was brand new.

But since lithium cells in our chargers don't actually undergo a trickle charge, there's no worry of messing up your cells with an overnight charge, or even leaving them on the charger for days on end. If you happen to leave a nickle chemistry cell on a charger for a long time, you do indeed reduce the cell's life cycle because the charger is forcing that trickle charge into the cell. Forcing electrons into the cell when it's at maximum capacity destroys the electrodes overtime because any extra charging current that is not needed by the cell is actually converted into heat. Those extra electrons have to go somewhere, and since the cell can't convert anymore oxides back into their original state, the electrons are just lost as heat and this eventually breaks down the electrodes.

This is one of many reasons why lithium cells aren't trickle charged. After all, we've seen plenty of videos of lithium cells exploding when someone tries to overcharge them.

Don't leave your nickle cells on trickle charge too long, or the extra heat (although not readily perceived by touching them on the outside) will deteriorate those highly reactive metals.

My lenovo laptop even had a battery maintenance feature where it would charge all the way, run it down and then charge back up all the way when you told it to "re-condition" the battery. Even though it was a Li-Ion battery.

Yup. This is more common to lead acid batteries and nickle chemistries, but it can actually work for lithiums as well. What's actually happening is that the charging system will increase the charging current to higher than normal. It's actually very successful in lead acid batteries and nickle cells, but not so much in lithiums. The charger increases the charging current to much higher than normal in an attempt to "shock" the oxides quickly back into a state of ionization. Meaning, this type of reforming charge is to try and take a bad cell that has a lot of oxidation (due to lots of used cycles in which not all of the molecules can be converted back into their original state) and forcefully break those bonds so that it is useful again.

A nice and dirty example is to take an old nicad (nickle cadmium) cell and connect the leads onto a DC welder. Anyone that's welded before knows you're dealing with TONS of amps flowing through a small space. Hook that nicad cell up to the welder (or another high amp power source) and you force tons of electrons back into the cell and break apart those oxide bonds. It really does work, and you can revive old and dead cells this way. I've not actually done it with a welder before, but have used a high power DC powersupply, and it really does work (although eventually you have to toss it; because you can't do this forever).

...continued...

[Brandon]

Is it recommended? Well, yes and no. The cells heat up very quickly, and the most politically correct way of thinking is that you risk exploding the cells from too much internal pressure. But if you're careful and slow about it, it can actually work.

That's essentially the principle behind your laptop's "battery maintenance" feature - pushing a lot of amperage into the pack in a short amount of time; then discharging it completely, and then recharging it again. Of course, since this is a consumer maintenance principle, that charging current won't actually be very high and won't be dangerous as in the example of the DC welder or using a DC powersupply. But, it can work to recondition an old battery pack that is near its useful life.

i suppose that the voltage check on the charger is a good thing because those OEM 510 batteries don't have protection on them

Actually they do have a protection circuit on them. Ever notice your vapor production drop off and then suddenly stop? You look down at the end of the battery and the LED blinks at you for like 20 seconds? That's the battery's PCB kicking in on the shutoff voltage so that you don't overdischarge the cell.

but what about the 14500 batteries and all others with the PCB on it? Does the charger that we use for them do the check or does the PCB handle the cut-off? Is it both?

Actually it's both. The charger cutsoff at a predetermined voltage, which is usually 4.2V. Some are higher, like around the 4.3 to 4.35 range, but that's very rare. So for the most part consider your charger cuts off at 4.2V as that is the consumer-level industry standard for safety and long life. You can get away with a higher cutoff charging voltage of 4.3 or a tiny bit higher, and you actually get a higher cell capacity at this voltage, but it cuts your battery's life cycle in half or more, and is a tad bit more on the dangerous side.

Let's just say that all of the chargers that you and I can get our hands on (outside of the industrial scene) cutoff at 4.2V. Now the PCB on our protected batteries also have a high voltage cutoff protection to provide us safety in case we screw up and decide to hook them up directly to our car battery to charge, and that depends upon the manufacturer. Most likely it's around the 4.3V mark, but I've not been able to find a datasheet directly from the manufacturer (either trustfire or ultrafire) to verify what that is specifically.

do you think that dual redundant check is even necessary?

Yup. But that's only because lithium chemistries are so violent when things go wrong. Short circuit a nickle cell and you may get a little venting (they do vent hydrogen gas in extreme circumstances; and are designed with safety valves to completely vent out all of the gas and not allow the cell to be reused). Short circuit an unprotected LITHIUM cell..... well, just check out youtube for some good explosions.

And the same goes for overcharging them as well. You get violent reactions from over-discharging OR over-charging them. What happens if that little charger that you use burns out and tries to charge your cells over 4.2V? When you're dealing with fire, you can never have too many safeties

...(whew)... Sorry for the long post. Now I'm going to sleep.

[Tektronik]

Those were some truly awesome explanations. Thanks so much for spilling your brain out all the floor, cleaning up the mess, and sorting everything out neatly on the table. It would be nice to see this info on batteries moved to a separate thread labeled "Battery Talk" or something similar. That way it won't get lost in the archives over time! Thanks once again from the SME on batteries

[WillBlack]

Good points all around, but I'm still a skeptic of those LiFePo4 batteries. After all, that's what Robert was using when his Detonator blew up in his pants and burned his leg...

That's not what Robert was using. He was using the unbranded blue CR2's off Ebay that everyone has warned against using.

This is the junk he had that blew up (his own pic):

I have no idea why when real branded CR2's from a reputable dealer can be had for $1.53 (that's shipped).

http://hightechdealz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=59

Some common sense helps. Have a meter and check you batteries' voltages periodically.

But since lithium cells in our chargers don't actually undergo a trickle charge, there's no worry of messing up your cells with an overnight charge, or even leaving them on the charger for days on end.

The flashlight fanatics do extensive testing. Many of the cheap chargers folks use for standard Li-ions do not cut-off properly or completely, and do continue to trickle. This is often discussed and many use timers to ensure a complete cut-off. Reading the comments at DealExtreme you'll often see comments by knowledgeable folks warning of chargers that continue to trickle.

I used to be worried about leaving them on the charger overnight for fear of losing battery life..... So, then why did my laptop battery go from 4 hours of running time to 45 minutes? I used to believe that it was because I'd leave it hooked up to the wall all the time and constantly charging and that would kill it.

Heat plain and simple. Charging or not you are constantly cooking your batteries. If you are always on AC power pull the battery pack.

You know, after I made this single 14500 box mod to hold me over till I get my VP2 fixed, I started thinking about going to higher voltage with another battery box mod... Keep in mind that a fresh 14500 battery starts at 4.1-4.2 volts. That would put you at about 8 volts on fresh batteries.

Unloaded voltages don't mean much when it comes to actually vaping. On a home-built mod or no electric frills American mod as soon as you press your button (loaded volts, atty engaged) you are down to about 3.8V, that's on a good day. The commercial Chinese mods and ecigs considerably less. A Joye ecig's loaded volts (and the Joye made eGo) are only at about 3.1V from the get go. Looking at the watts (power heat) explains why someone who moves from a Joye 510 ecig to The Chuck notices a difference. Both use '3.7V' batteries but the Joye ecig produces 4.4 watts while The Chuck (or home-made mod) produces 6.6 watts. An analogy would be the light from a 40 watt bulb vs a 60 watt bulb. Using an imitation (they aren't clones as that would infer identical performance) SLB/DSE 510 atties on The Chuck would only yield 4.7 watts, hence the lack of throat hit that many prefer.

[Brandon]

Hey thanks for the correction on Robert's Detonator batteries WillBlack! I checked back on his post in February and they *weren't* the LiFePo4s. Good catch there.

Now about those lithium chargers trickle charging - are you saying this is a function of the charger or it's an error or just bad quality manufacturing that makes the charger continue to leak a small amount of current even when the cycle is complete? If that's the case, then I need to read up on that and try to identify some good quality chargers that don't have this defect. Any suggestions there?