Anybody Ever Tried This?

[jmhester]

I was looking through the boards and couldn't find what I'm thinking of making. I like the 5v box mod on the thread below but what I've been thinking about is running 4 - 14500 with a pair in paralell and then those pair in series so you would still get the 7V or so but have a total of 1800mah for long life. Anybody ever tried a series/paralell arrangement like that?

[KuyaDave]

not sure if anyone has. But why not just use a bigger battery?

[Brian]

That is something I'll be looking into, but haven't found it yet. If you run across anything let me know.

I'd more likely use two 3v batts and that you can switch between 3.7 and 6v. Don't know if I want 7v.

[mcquinn]

How big do you need it?I still like 3.7 volts the best.

[nana]

Well, I like my 5v and I'm curious about 6v. I hadn't thought about 7v before. But, who knows?

[wagex]

just make sure that if you are going to do the batteries in a series to put a 5v regulator on it, 6v most of the time requires special attys, and 7.4v (2x3.7) dotn wanna go there

[ddavelarsen]

I believe they do make 7V attys for use with the big GG. So far they've always been sold out when I looked though.

[BirdDog]

From what I have read here and at other forums the 5v is supposed to be the sweet spot. I think anything more than 5v will kill the flavor and kill the atomizer. You also run the risk when you start to stack batteries in these mods to reach that higher voltage. I just don't think it is safe. Most of these mods are not vented properly and could lead to disaster.

[Brian]

I believe they do make 7V attys for use with the big GG. So far they've always been sold out when I looked though.

From what I've heard (not sure if I'm correct here), the HV atty's actually bring the voltage down to around the 5v range. Don't see the point of using more than 5v is you're going to use an atty that will act as a voltage regulator.

[snubber]

We've all heard the saying "bigger is better" but when is enough enough. Think you may be trying too hard. Just my lame opinion.

[WISVAPOR]

Ooooooo! I would be a little scared of multi battery mods.I just looked at the "detinator explosion".It is caused from using cells that are not protected or matched.When not matched or protected,the cells work against each other and the results are bad.I would agree with a larger single cell mod.Just have other charged cells handy.They are not that expensive and a heck of a lot safer.Just don't want to see anyone hurt.

[Hawk]

I was looking through the boards and couldn't find what I'm thinking of making. I like the 5v box mod on the thread below but what I've been thinking about is running 4 - 14500 with a pair in paralell and then those pair in series so you would still get the 7V or so but have a total of 1800mah for long life. Anybody ever tried a series/paralell arrangement like that?

--------------

Doc, I hear ya here.. But IMO the better way would be to run two 18650's in parallel. You could get the 3000 Mah batts like I have for the Silver Bullet, run it at 7.4 volts, regulate it down to 5 volts, and have it last a full 2 - 2 1/2 days... The box gets bigger, but who cares if you can vape 5v mobile for 2 days without battery issues...

[Tektronik]

You know, after I made this single 14500 box mod to hold me over till I get my VP2 fixed, I started thinking about going to higher voltage with another battery box mod.. I mean you can, it's just that I'm a bit scared of using the 14500 battery to do it. Seems like there's a reason everyone uses the RCR123a style of battery. There must have been some planning behind it. Your idea of using 4 batteries and run them in series and parallel at the same time that may be the answer! Series for the voltage, parallel for the current requirements/stability. I'd definitely take the advice of the others and use a voltage regulator. Keep in mind that a fresh 14500 battery starts at 4.1-4.2 volts. That would put you at about 8 volts on fresh batteries.

I'd be very interested in seeing the outcome! Good luck!

Edited March 17, 2010 by Tektronik

[GDub]

You know, after I made this single 14500 box mod to hold me over till I get my VP2 fixed, I started thinking about going to higher voltage with another battery box mod.. I mean you can, it's just that I'm a bit scared of using the 14500 battery to do it. Seems like there's a reason everyone uses the RCR123a style of battery. There must have been some planning behind it. Your idea of using 4 batteries and run them in series and parallel at the same time that may be the answer! Series for the voltage, parallel for the current requirements/stability. I'd definitely take the advice of the others and use a voltage regulator. Keep in mind that a fresh 14500 battery starts at 4.1-4.2 volts. That would put you at about 8 volts on fresh batteries.

I'd be very interested in seeing the outcome! Good luck!

I think it's less about the form factor of the battery (RCR123a) and more about the fact that they use the LifePO4 design, from what I've read they withstand the thermal runaway better than typical Li-ion as well as longer cycle and calendar life.

[Brandon]

Good points all around, but I'm still a skeptic of those LiFePo4 batteries. After all, that's what Robert was using when his Detonator blew up in his pants and burned his leg.

I'm not saying the chemistry itself is bad, but rather the labeling and marketing of those batteries. I definitely do believe in this chemistry (specifically the nano-phosphates), but I just don't trust greedy manufacturers and their labeling. Afterall, how are you and I as consumers supposed to tell the difference between them unless they're labeled?

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a pessimist. But I'm a strong believer in PCB-protected batteries; safe chemistry or not. Many many years ago I worked in a tire manufacturing plant when lithium chemistries (specifically the phosphates that we're interested in) were just hitting the big commercial markets for portable electronic devices. In my very short time in that plant, I heard of 2 instances of batteries exploding in mobile test equipment used to monitor some of the big machinery out there. I will play devil's advocate against myself and say that there were more lead acid battery explosions in the battery room where we charged and maintained packs for forklifts and tuggers; but those lithium phosphates were supposed to be fail-safe.

The protected 14500s are a proven winner all around. But I think part of the problem as to why they're not widely used in multi-battery mods is because of their size. Put 2 of them end-to-end in a line, and you'll see what I mean. Though the 14500 form-factor itself is specified to be compatible with the AA battery form factor, the protected versions are actually longer and I have yet to see a spec sheet that says they must conform.

A mod using 2 of these stacked together will be much longer than what the average person is used to seeing and holding. However, using a shorter but wider (fatter) form factor battery appears smaller to the eye and possibly more comfortable to the hand. Something you can covertly palm in your hand is more attractive to most folks (despite the girth) than something that is thinner but much taller.

Did your elementary school teacher ever trick you with the "short-but wide-glass VS tall-but-skinny-glass" optical illusion? Mine did, and I fell for it. Heck, I'd probably still fall for it even today. I think that's where 90% of the decision to use CR123 batteries comes from in mods.

[Tektronik]

I agree that stacking them end to end would give one long and obtrusive device, but you can always put them together, side by side in a 2 by 2 battery holder, and place that holder in something like a project box with plenty of room to spare for a nice switch and whatever atty connector you want. That was what I was thinking about doing anyhow. You could still wire them in such a way as to have two pairs each in series and parallel those two together. Ever have one of those big blocky 6volt batteries? The ones like you usually get with a cheap flashlight with a handle? If you were to take the casing off the battery inside you'll find 32 AA batteries. You get 6 volts out of it. If each AA is 1.5 volts, you'd have to wire together 8 sets of four in series and parallel all 8 sets together. I wonder if you could use big @$$ battery that with an atomizer? Hmmmmm....

[Brandon]

Good points made there Tektronik.

About the 6v lantern batteries, that 32 AA thing is just a hoax. I've opened up 2 of them to get the carbon rods out of the cells. There are 4 cells in there, and the size is "AF", which is basically the width of a D cell battery, but longer. They're very large and funny looking.

On an unrelated note, for anyone interested in home chemistry (especially electrochemistry) those cheap 6v lantern batteries are a good source for your carbon rods. Just make sure you get the cheapest ones that are of the carbon-zinc chemistry; not the $10 ones that are actually alkaline (they don't use carbon as a cathode).

I didn't come up with that on my own, rather saw it on an episode of NurdRage. Those rods have come in handy a few times (electroplating and making sulphuric acid; but don't tell my wife about that last one cuz she doesn't know).

[Tektronik]

Just a hoax? Ahh that's too bad cuz when I heard about that, I've wanted to -up until just now- to pry one of those open because my kids go through AA batteries like crazy! Never got to it though, should have, then I wouldn't be passing along ignorant advice. Thanks for clearing that up!

[ddavelarsen]

Good points made there Tektronik.

About the 6v lantern batteries, that 32 AA thing is just a hoax. I've opened up 2 of them to get the carbon rods out of the cells. There are 4 cells in there, and the size is "AF", which is basically the width of a D cell battery, but longer. They're very large and funny looking.

On an unrelated note, for anyone interested in home chemistry (especially electrochemistry) those cheap 6v lantern batteries are a good source for your carbon rods. Just make sure you get the cheapest ones that are of the carbon-zinc chemistry; not the $10 ones that are actually alkaline (they don't use carbon as a cathode).

I didn't come up with that on my own, rather saw it on an episode of NurdRage. Those rods have come in handy a few times (electroplating and making sulphuric acid; but don't tell my wife about that last one cuz she doesn't know).

Well I hate being the last guy in the room, but what do you use the carbon rods for?

[Brandon]

Carbon rods are just about the most economical and least reactive electrodes you can get for electrochemistry. Platinum is best, but dang if it's expensive.

I haven't ventured too far into electrochemistry, have just plated a few things in copper (which doesn't require carbon electrodes, you can just use copper wire and a nice copper sulphate solution), but they're the best for cheaply making sulphuric acid.

You can make copper sulphate by dissolving copper into sulphuric acid, and reverse the process by making sulphuric acid from copper sulphate. But you'll need carbon or platinum rods to reverse the process. Oddly enough, all these materials can be had very cheaply if you know what you're looking for:

Copper Sulphate - Root Kill (pure solid copper sulphate crystals that you flush down your drain for folks with their own septic system to kill tree roots that get too adventurous and find their way into your septic line). I picked up a 2lb bottle for $10 at Lowes. The crystals are very pretty (and poisonous of course) and you can make some majorly strong copper sulphate solutions just using a little bit of it. The bottle will probably last me a lifetime.

Carbon Rods - The cathode of a carbon zinc battery or carbon gouging welding rods (though 95% of these welding rods will actually be plated in copper and are pretty expensive). I've bought five 6volt lanterns that came with a cheapo carbon zinc lantern battery at Ace Hardware for like $5. The batteries themselves are about $4.

Carbon rods are also good for stirring sticks for folks who melt their own metals, though that's something I've not played with.

Also, since carbon is high on the galvanic series table, it's a great cathode for making your own galvanic batteries. That's something I've only recently been playing with.

Stick a carbon rod and a magnesium fire starter stick into the ground and connect them together with a multimeter and you'll get a voltage potential over 1 volt. Yup, earth batteries (this actually works with any 2 dissimilar metals, but carbon and magnesium are very much polar opposites on the galvanic table, so they produce a high potential difference). I've played around with some earth batteries over the past couple months, but since my backyard isn't very big, I don't have a chance to explore it as much as I'd like

.....wow..... from vaping to chemistry.... Ha!

For anyone that's interested in home chemistry, check out "NurdRage" on youtube. He's the best!

[ddavelarsen]

Great post Brandon, thanks! There are all kinds of knifemaking applications for plating and etching but my real interest here was the earth battery idea... Hm... I could make a 5V earth battery, run a panel to my deck with USB ports in it, and vape ... all summer! Maybe I could make a big enough earth battery to run my 12V cooler... Hmm...

I need to retire.

[TeriJo]

Carbon rods are just about the most economical and least reactive electrodes you can get for electrochemistry. Platinum is best, but dang if it's expensive.

I haven't ventured too far into electrochemistry, have just plated a few things in copper (which doesn't require carbon electrodes, you can just use copper wire and a nice copper sulphate solution), but they're the best for cheaply making sulphuric acid.

You can make copper sulphate by dissolving copper into sulphuric acid, and reverse the process by making sulphuric acid from copper sulphate. But you'll need carbon or platinum rods to reverse the process. Oddly enough, all these materials can be had very cheaply if you know what you're looking for:

Copper Sulphate - Root Kill (pure solid copper sulphate crystals that you flush down your drain for folks with their own septic system to kill tree roots that get too adventurous and find their way into your septic line). I picked up a 2lb bottle for $10 at Lowes. The crystals are very pretty (and poisonous of course) and you can make some majorly strong copper sulphate solutions just using a little bit of it. The bottle will probably last me a lifetime.

Carbon Rods - The cathode of a carbon zinc battery or carbon gouging welding rods (though 95% of these welding rods will actually be plated in copper and are pretty expensive). I've bought five 6volt lanterns that came with a cheapo carbon zinc lantern battery at Ace Hardware for like $5. The batteries themselves are about $4.

Carbon rods are also good for stirring sticks for folks who melt their own metals, though that's something I've not played with.

Also, since carbon is high on the galvanic series table, it's a great cathode for making your own galvanic batteries. That's something I've only recently been playing with.

Stick a carbon rod and a magnesium fire starter stick into the ground and connect them together with a multimeter and you'll get a voltage potential over 1 volt. Yup, earth batteries (this actually works with any 2 dissimilar metals, but carbon and magnesium are very much polar opposites on the galvanic table, so they produce a high potential difference). I've played around with some earth batteries over the past couple months, but since my backyard isn't very big, I don't have a chance to explore it as much as I'd like

.....wow..... from vaping to chemistry.... Ha!

For anyone that's interested in home chemistry, check out "NurdRage" on youtube. He's the best!

I am picturing your yard with rods sticking up everywhere and signs that say "really, I'm NOT crazy just DRAWN this way... watch your step"

That aside, it sounds VERY interesting. More hubby's area than mine. My gray matter managed the potato as a conductor for daughter's elementary science project, but just barely

[Brandon]

I am picturing your yard with rods sticking up everywhere and signs that say "really, I'm NOT crazy just DRAWN this way... watch your step"

LOL! Yeah TeriJo, the small size of my yard and also my wife keep in check the extent of little experiments that I can perform. She's a very patient lady, but even she has limits that she has to impose upon me

[Tektronik]

Brandon, Let me ask you your opinion on initial charging the Li-ion batteries with PCBs

I always hear that when you first get your batteries, you should charge for at least 8 hours.

Would you still have to do that if your batts were the protected type with the PCB? I mean the PCB prevents overcharge and overdischarge anyhow, so why 8 hours, won't it just cut off the charge when the battery reaches the upper voltage limit anyhow?

Edited March 20, 2010 by Tektronik

[Brandon]

A very good question, to which I don't feel very qualified to answer, but I'll share the little that I know about it.

Doing an initial "forming charge" on a Lithium battery is complete bunk. This is something that's left over from nickle chemistry cells such as Nicad (nickle cadmium) and Nimh (nickle metal hydride) and to a lesser degree also lead acid batteries. In the case of lead acid batteries, a couple forming charges and discharges helps to promote the growth of lead sulphate crystals, which in turn increases the surface area of the plates and thus increases the capacity of the cells to their maximum potential. By the time we get some lead acid batteries into our hands on the consumer side of things, they've usually gone through a couple of charge/discharge cycles to start this process, so it's not something the manufacturers push on us.

It's similar in nickle cells; they need a couple charges and discharges to reach their maximum capacity though I can't remember the chemistry involved in what exactly happens on the surface of the plates. In the case of nickle chemistry batteries, the market is so highly saturated with manufacturers and competition is so fierce that the cells will usually only be charged once (twice or 3 times if you're lucky and buy a premium higher priced brand) because they're trying to quickly turnaround their stock and keep costs to the absolute bare minimum. After all, keeping a cell in storage for a few hours to undergo a couple of cycles means less time for them to get them on a boat and ship them to a distributor in America (or another country).

With lithium cells, the charging method is a little different. There is no trickle charging that we're used to with nickle cells. Once the battery reaches the determined cutoff voltage (4.2volts typically) the charger shuts off completely. This is opposite in the case of nickle cells. In a nickle cell, once the cell reaches the determined cutoff voltage it goes into trickle charging mode which is usually a charging current of C/10 to C/20 (meaning a charging current of 1/10 to 1/20 the cell's rated capacity). Trickle charging a nickle cell for 8hrs+ is a quick and dirty way to get around having to do a "forming charge and discharge". It doesn't work as well, but for someone that doesn't want to take the time to go through a few cycles, it's acceptable.

With lithiums, there's no point in this. They don't need to build up a layer of sulphates or oxides on the plates to reach their maximum capacity. And this is one of the great things about them.

When I got my first Joye510 starter kit, it also mentioned to do an 8hr charge on the batteries prior to use, even if the charger gave a green light indicating that the charge cycle was complete. I knew this was crap, but I did a quick search online just to make sure. And sure enough, this type of a forming charge is complete bunk. The charger doesn't give a trickle charge like a nickle chemistry cell charger does.

One way to verify this is to take a look at your Joye510 battery charger. Look carefully at the LEDs on it. About once every 10 seconds or so you'll notice a very quick flash. The LED flickers for an instant. What's happening here is that the charger is checking the voltage of the battery itself. It checks to see that the voltage is 4.2V and determines no charging cycle is needed. It's very fast, and a little hard to notice. But I also have a 5 battery charger I bought from Wicked Eliquid, that charges 5 batteries at the same time. It's very easy to see the flicker here when there are five separate lights to watch.

Plug a fully charged battery (or a slightly drained one) into it, and you'll see a slight delay between when you make full contact, and when the LED flickers. This is that short 'checkup' cycle.

.....whew..... Sorry for the long post.... So basically from what I know, doing a 'forming charge' on a lithium cell is not needed. If you're paranoid and have the time to wait, feel free. But just know that nothing is actually happening during these 8 hours