Is Vapor Addiction Real? I Think Its All About Choices.

[Speakeasy]

FTJoe, I agree with what your trying to say, and I surely don't feel offended. Nor should you be, bud. I whole-heartedly agree that to err on the side of caution is very prudent. Your point is well argued, and well taken. I must admit that I may have pushed it a bit when I wrote that using the e-cig exclusively would cause one's health to improve in EXACTLY the same manner as if one quits all together. However, from the evidence being presented so far I can't find too much to be worried about. There is a lot of really bad press out there, Like this idiot, and the FDA sure isn't helping, either. It's good to be skeptical, but I'm convinced that when all the smoke clears the e-cigarette will be exonerated completely. But thats just my opinion....

If you haven't watched the Dr Baron's interview yet, you should. Here is the link again: Dr. Baron

Dr. Baron is the Chief of staff at UCLA Medical Center. The reason I advice you to watch his interview is because he is VERY reputable. I realize that he is being interviewed (and possibly paid) by an e-cig company, but what he says about nicotine sums up very well what science says about nicotine.

Other appropriate links: New Zealand Study Nicotine info UK research on e-cig carts Study done on PG

With regards to your comments on how long nicotine remains in the system, and insurance testing, let me say this....

I have found several varying results concerning nicotine's half-life. The most conservative estimate that I've found says that nicotine's half-life is 2 hours. The most liberal opinions state that nicotine has a 40 minute half-life. The reason for this discrepancy seems to involve the individual. Some people metabolize nicotine faster than others. Thats why some folks smoke a great deal more than others. I smoked about 2 packs a day, but a friend of mine only smoked half of that a day. She may have metabolized nicotine slower than I did. But my reason for bringing up the short half-life of nicotine was to help illustrate how difficult it would be to OD by smoking or vaping. Nicotine is metabolized very rapidly in our system. The symptoms you wrote about (increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, et al) are associated primarily with TOXIC quantities of nicotine. Yes, your pulse goes up a little while you smoke, but not to any harmful degree. Certainly not nearly as much as it does just climbing a flight of stairs. Testing for nicotine is done by measuring cotinine, which is the primary metabolite of nicotine, because nicotine goes through our system so quickly.

Look, most addictions are harmful to a person, I understand that. Alcohol or drug addictions can ruin a person's life. Gambling or even sex can become harmful addictions. If you want to argue that ANY addiction is harmful, well you certainly have a strong point. But what I'm saying is if nicotine, by itself, taken in normally low doses, is in fact "virtually" harmless (like caffeine), then why should we see it as potentially bad for us?

[FTJoe]

Look, most addictions are harmful to a person, I understand that. Alcohol or drug addictions can ruin a person's life. Gambling or even sex can become harmful addictions. If you want to argue that ANY addiction is harmful, well you certainly have a strong point. But what I'm saying is if nicotine, by itself, taken in normally low doses, is in fact "virtually" harmless (like caffeine), then why should we see it as potentially bad for us?

Cool on the offense, I was afraid I put you off based on your last opening. As I said, I thought your take on this was that nicotine is similar to caffeine and assuming that's true, that would be excellent news. Kids have free access to caffeine. Though I doubt the FDA given its present state of stupidity will give up control. When pressed about this by others, I like to be armed with all data available. When I get a chance, I'll do some more searches and I will definitely look at the links provided when I get a chance. As I also pointed out though, you're talking about normal use of the product. I believe even small amount of e-liquid accessible to a kid would be disastrous. And how long before some knucklehead teen wants to see if drinking it gives them a rush? Then we're in huge trouble and maybe we should be. As I've always stated in the past, I know e-cigs are great but there are obvious forces at work against it and I would love to see some controls and testing in place and some simple studies done. That would remove some of the teeth of these BS arguments against it. I understand this is really two different issues, but safety is safety. Great news if nicotine really isn't that bad for you.

Edited January 25, 2010 by FTJoe

[ddavelarsen]

If I had to go all day without nicotine I'd make everyone around me a nervous wreck.

Amen to that, brother. People around me start getting edgy if I haven't had my full quota for the most recent 15 minutes...

As to whether there is such a thing as a 'vaping addiction' - I'd have to say, "Sure!" We have this wonderfully complex neurological system - the best in the world - that gives us all kinds of side effects. Spirituality, memory, all kinds of stuff. Addiction and mind-bending are right up there in the list. I believe they must all be of some survival benefit or we wouldn't be so successful as a species. People can become addicted to all kinds of things; daydreaming, reading, sex, drugs, whatever. These behaviors are not necessarily destructive; it's the obsession around them that becomes a problem. Physical addiction is an added component. When physically addicted to anything, our minds come to believe that substance is required, like food. When we're feeling a craving for our favorite substance, our mind reacts as if we're starving; and think what starving people will do to each other when they're hungry. This is how addiction can be so destructive.

As mentioned, nicotine addiction is probably one of the hardest to break; harder even than heroin or crack, despite that the withdrawal symptoms are not as severe. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know why that is, but I can say from personal experience it's much easier to break about any addiction than nicotine. Smoking is not simply a nicotine addiction, as we have often said. There are ritual aspects, other physiological issues like the throat hit, the who oral gratification thing. There's a lot more to it than just nicotine, which is why I think so many people can go hours without vaping when they couldn't go more than a few minutes without smoking.

I'm not that way; I'm a nicotine fiend. Patches and gum didn't work for me for at least two reasons; insufficient nicotine and the loss of the throat hit/lung effect. One quit smoking trial I thought I'd substitute a secondary product to get the throat hit part satisfied, and used patches and gum for the nicotine. That lasted one really loooong day before I gave that up as a bad idea...

Vaping is a wonder. I'm not completely comfortable with vaping only, even yet. I'm a serious addict; a dedicated addict. But vaping has done more than any other course to help me stop smoking. Believe me, I've tried everything I could think of including double helpings of intercourse and hot/cold showers to quit smoking. To no avail. Yet here I am with all these non-smoking days under my belt!

I'm still addicted though; addicted to vaping. For me it's the nicotine and the throat hit. For others it might be something else; just being cool, maybe. If you took my PV away I'd freak out on somebody. Well, no; before I got really off my rocker I'd just go buy a carton of Pall Mall and resign myself to an ugly death. But I do believe one can be addicted to vaping. We're capable, lucky us, of becoming addicted to about anything we find pleasant. It's just our lovely nature.

Just my .02. Great thread. Thanks everyone, this is exactly what I find so valuable about Vapor Talk. You all rock.

[Brian]

Wow - this turned out to be a great thread! Ok - so my stupid question - on the half life - wouldn't that be different if you're dead? Sorry, but I'm serious. Wouldn't that explain the difference between the debated 48 hours vs. 2 hours?

[mistorfog]

Congratulations on quitting analogs, like most of us here have! Is Vaping addicting? My opinion is that of your nature. Although addicted to nicotine, I am no longer addicted to cigarettes and all of the bad stuff with them. As for vaping, I have found puffing a big monster cloud very enjoyable. I can go way longer without a vape then I could without a smoke, but if my PV is in my hand then I'm puffin'. I think it's all in your mind set.

[Speakeasy]

Wow - this turned out to be a great thread! Ok - so my stupid question - on the half life - wouldn't that be different if you're dead? Sorry, but I'm serious. Wouldn't that explain the difference between the debated 48 hours vs. 2 hours?

Hey Brian,

I'm not exactly sure what it is your getting at, bud, lol. But I'll try to help if I can. I'm personally not aware of a debate about the half-life of nicotine. The PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) we keep in the ICU at work specifically states that the half-life of nicotine is 2 hours. Not 48 hours. I mentioned in my last post that some liberal estimates say that the half-life is 40 minutes. This estimate is generaly found in studies done by anti-smoking lobbys and makers of NRTs. The reason for this may be because they hope to show how the tobacco industry uses nicotine addiction to make us smoke/buy more cigarettes. Most physicians and scientists you ask would probably say "around two hours".

I pasted the pharmacokinetics of nicotine I got from Wikipedia (which is correct) below. As far as what happens to nicotine after you die, I don't know. Because the liver and kidneys shut down when the rest of you does, I would assume that nicotine would have a better chance to stick around a lot longer, although I don't know how long it takes to degrade on its own.

"Pharmacokinetics

As nicotine enters the body, it is distributed quickly through the bloodstream and can cross the blood-brain barrier. On average it takes about seven seconds for the substance to reach the brain when inhaled.[citation needed] The half life of nicotine in the body is around two hours.[11]

The amount of nicotine absorbed by the body from smoking depends on many factors, including the type of tobacco, whether the smoke is inhaled, and whether a filter is used. For chewing tobacco, dipping tobacco, snus and snuff, which are held in the mouth between the lip and gum, or taken in the nose, the amount released into the body tends to be much greater than smoked tobacco. Nicotine is metabolized in the liver by cytochrome P450 enzymes (mostly CYP2A6, and also by CYP2B6). A major metabolite is cotinine.

Other primary metabolites include nicotine N'-oxide, nornicotine, nicotine isomethonium ion, 2-hydroxynicotine and nicotine glucuronide.[12]

Gluconuration and oxidative metabolism of nicotine to cotinine are both inhibited by menthol, an additive to mentholated cigarettes, thus increasing the half-life of nicotine in vivo.[13]"

I wish to make something clear here about half-life. The reason I brought this up in my previous posts was to try to demonstrate just how hard (damn near impossible) it is to overdose on nicotine by smoking tobacco and vaping nicotine liquid. Some people may not understand what half-life means. When we use the term half-life, we're talking about a compound's effective duration. So, 2 hours after you smoke, the effects nicotine has on the body start to decline. 2 hours after that all the nicotine from that smoke 4 hours ago has been metabolized.

If you smoked or vaped NON-STOP you would make yourself dizzy and nauseated, and probably stop smoking or vaping long before you could accumulate enough nicotine in your system to be fatally toxic. Here's what wiki says about toxicity. Notice how it says that it is impossible to overdose on nicotine by smoking alone.

The LD50 of nicotine is 50 mg/kg for rats and 3 mg/kg for mice. 40–60 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans.[40][41] Nicotine therefore has a high toxicity in comparison to many other alkaloids such as cocaine, which has an LD50 of 95.1 mg/kg when administered to mice. It is impossible however to overdose on nicotine through smoking alone (though a person can overdose on nicotine through a combination of nicotine patches, nicotine gum, and/or tobacco smoking at the same time).[42][43] Spilling an extremely high concentration of nicotine onto the skin can result in intoxication or even death since nicotine readily passes into the bloodstream from dermal contact.[44]

The carcinogenic properties of nicotine in standalone form, separate from tobacco smoke, have not been evaluated by the IARC, and it has not been assigned to an official carcinogen group. The currently available literature indicates that nicotine, on its own, does not promote the development of cancer in healthy tissue and has no mutagenic properties. However, nicotine and the increased cholinergic activity it causes have been shown to impede apoptosis, which is one of the methods by which the body destroys unwanted cells (programmed cell death). Since apoptosis helps to remove mutated or damaged cells that may eventually become cancerous, the inhibitory actions of nicotine may create a more favourable environment for cancer to develop, though this also remains to be proven.[45]

The teratogenic properties of nicotine have not yet been adequately researched, and while the likelihood of birth defects caused by nicotine is believed to be very small or nonexistent, nicotine replacement product manufacturers recommend consultation with a physician before using a nicotine patch or nicotine gum while pregnant or nursing.[45][unreliable source?]

Women who use nicotine gum and patches during the early stages of pregnancy face an increased risk of having babies with birth defects, says a study that looked at about 77,000 pregnant women in Denmark. The study found that women who use nicotine-replacement therapy in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy have a 60 percent greater risk of having babies with birth defects, compared to women who are non-smokers, the Daily Mail reported. The findings were published in the journal Obstetrics and Gynaecology

[FTJoe]

I'm not exactly sure what it is your getting at, bud, lol.

I think his only point is you pointed out the half-life is 2 hours, I posted that I saw 48 hours being discussed as how long it can be detected (among many other guesses). The nature of a half-life is is something is detectable at say 100ppm, and you start with 1000ppm and a half-life of 2 hours, after two hours it would only be down to 500 not 0, 4 hours it goes to 250, 8 hours it is 125 and finally, about 9 hours later it's not detectable or effectively gone (unless you were dead). Apologies in advance if I misunderstand the definition of a half-life or what you were saying, I'm going from my Sci-fi reading, but it still completely validates your point about how tough it would be to overdose.

Edited January 27, 2010 by FTJoe

[Brian]

I think his only point is you pointed out the half-life is 2 hours, I posted that I saw 48 hours being discussed as how long it can be detected (among many other guesses).

Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about, but I guess I didn't really have a point.

[FTJoe]

Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about, but I guess I didn't really have a point.

You mean it's pointless? ;-)

[snubber]

Is e-cig smoking addictive? I don't think so, I already had the addiction to smoke before I found vaping. I've only really been off the analogs for 11 days,but I'm already starting to notice some changes in how I feel and my wife doesn't tell me I stink anymore.I'm sure it will get better as I go on and maybe the next time I have a lung capacity test for work it won't say my lungs are 115 yrs old. It's the habit of smoking that I still have and that's where e-cigs come in to play. I get my hand and mouth action as I did with analogs, and that visual effect of a large "puff of smoke" (vapor) that I liked so much.

So are e-cigs addictive? maybe,maybe not. I just know they've helped me.

[ddavelarsen]

You know that's a good way of looking at it - would vaping become a habit if someone picked it up from scratch? If they vaped nicotine, yes. But that's not necessary. That's a great angle on this, thanks snubber.

[hardwired]

...had to bump this, thanks to FTJoe for posting the link to this thread.

Reading this was like tapping into a discussion I believe all newbies to vaping should be a part of. I had a mini-stroke 3 years ago at the age of 38. Lost my swallowing function for a few days and mobility for a few weeks. Made a 99% recovery since then. I was hospitalized and in-patient PT for a week and unable to smoke but went back to the damn things after being released. I've since been on a warfarin (blood thinner) & aspirin regimen, daily. The right ventricle leading to my brain is abnormally narrow and had clotted to the point of stroke. My stroke was mild in comparison to other types, but still serious. The concept of quitting smoking was presented to me by my doctors, not as an option, but a necessity in order to avoid further damage. Yet, I continued to smoke. Chantix was prescribed. I still smoked. The patch, gum...yadda. Couldn't stay away from cigarettes. It took a psychological toll. How weak in spirit am I? How selfish to continue to harm myself while helping my wife to raise 2 small kids, etc.

Vaping has helped me quit. Haven't touched an analog in 4 days and can't see myself ever again. But the question for me and my health remains. Is my addiction to nicotine, and the process of delivering it to my bloodstream by vapor inhalation, any less harmful to my neurological state? Unfortunately, no one can say with any real certainty. No long term data has been collected with respect to this. The hypothesis was presented in this thread about the stimulative effect nicotine as a vasoconstrictor has on the body's arteries...which honestly scares me. I've been getting headaches after vaping...even using vg juice. I've been vaping more than I smoked, which is common, I'm told...but I'm concerned about the level of nicotine I'm taking in.

Again, great discussion here...felt compelled to add to it. For what it's worth

[FTJoe]

...had to bump this, thanks to FTJoe for posting the link to this thread.

Reading this was like tapping into a discussion I believe all newbies to vaping should be a part of. I had a mini-stroke 3 years ago at the age of 38. Lost my swallowing function for a few days and mobility for a few weeks. Made a 99% recovery since then. I was hospitalized and in-patient PT for a week and unable to smoke but went back to the damn things after being released. I've since been on a warfarin (blood thinner) & aspirin regimen, daily. The right ventricle leading to my brain is abnormally narrow and had clotted to the point of stroke. My stroke was mild in comparison to other types, but still serious. The concept of quitting smoking was presented to me by my doctors, not as an option, but a necessity in order to avoid further damage. Yet, I continued to smoke. Chantix was prescribed. I still smoked. The patch, gum...yadda. Couldn't stay away from cigarettes. It took a psychological toll. How weak in spirit am I? How selfish to continue to harm myself while helping my wife to raise 2 small kids, etc.

Vaping has helped me quit. Haven't touched an analog in 4 days and can't see myself ever again. But the question for me and my health remains. Is my addiction to nicotine, and the process of delivering it to my bloodstream by vapor inhalation, any less harmful to my neurological state? Unfortunately, no one can say with any real certainty. No long term data has been collected with respect to this. The hypothesis was presented in this thread about the stimulative effect nicotine as a vasoconstrictor has on the body's arteries...which honestly scares me. I've been getting headaches after vaping...even using vg juice. I've been vaping more than I smoked, which is common, I'm told...but I'm concerned about the level of nicotine I'm taking in.

Again, great discussion here...felt compelled to add to it. For what it's worth

Excellent add. My advice,FWIW, go decent nic for a little bit, get real comfy with vaping and then start. There have been studies indicating you don't get as much nic through vaping as you do a cig so not sure that should be an issue. Regardless, after another week or two, start cutting down. Easy peasy. I would say after 8-16 weeks, you should be at zero. I will look things up if I can, but I'm 50% sure, its smoking that kills the arteries, not nicotine. Have to find out for sure (if the data is there). As far as headaches and such go, there is a thread on side effects. I'm not saying you should ignore anything, but there are side effects.

[Speakeasy]

Hey Hardwired,

Glad to read that you've recovered as well as you have from your stroke. It sounds like you've learned a very valuable lesson about health, so don't feel too bad about your past. We all tend to learn the hard way, it seems.

In searching for answers to all these questions, each of us find many conflicting things about whats known and whats not known about nicotine, tobacco, and the e-cig. The more you look on the internet, the more confusing it gets. If the report or document came from a supplier of a product in any industry involved with nicotine, it will be worded to slant the opinion to benefit that product. Any decent skeptic knows this already. If the report or document came from an independent scientific review, it most times was funded by a manufacturer or supplier of a product, and it can also be so filled with scientific jargon that it's hard to understand it fully. One thing your never going to find is a honest statement that reads, "You will be safe if you use/don't use this product/chemical/food/car/hand cream/ad nausium"...

I've read a lot of crap about nicotine. I've smoked for almost 30 years. I work in a hospital that specializes in substance abuse. I've been a nurse for 25 years. I know a gazillion doctors, pharmacists, counselors, lab technicians, respiratory therapists, and patients. Every person, EXCLUDING THE DOCTORS, that I talk to has a very different opinion about smoking and vaping. Every one of those opinions are based not only on their professional experience, but also on their personal experience. However, every one of the doctors I speak to about the e-cig has just one question. "Does that silly little thing keep you from smoking cigarettes? If yes, then use it, because tobacco is KILLING you!"

When I ask a physician about nicotine, they ALL say the EXACT SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!! nicotine doesn't kill.

In your comment, Hardwired, you wrote, "Is my addiction to nicotine, and the process of delivering it to my bloodstream by vapor inhalation, any less harmful to my neurological state? Unfortunately, no one can say with any real certainty. No long term data has been collected with respect to this. The hypothesis was presented in this thread about the stimulative effect nicotine as a vasoconstrictor has on the body's arteries...which honestly scares me."

I know that you went through a very serious event when you had your stroke, and I understand how comments about vasoconstriction can sound scary. Most people, after going through things like what you went through, want to educate themselves about their illness and try to learn as much as they can. I applaud this! I respect very much your wanting to know more. It's what all health care professionals want to see. So please know that by no means do I wish to make it seem as if what you know about stroke or smoking is wrong. But the comment you wrote, that I just quoted, is what moved me to write this reply.

OK look, your not going to get a complete, healthy understanding of what vasoconstriction REALLY means to YOUR health by just googling it. One needs to really study anatomy and physiology to a pretty advanced degree in order to be able to fully contemplate how it may effect you personally. Lol, I'm not saying that your incapable of grasping it, bud. I'm just saying that it's really technically advanced crap that involves not just A&P, but pharmacology, cardiology, and a whole bunch of other ologies as well. So lets just keep things simple, OK?

You said nobody can say with certainty how this stuff will effect you. But your wrong. Your doctor can tell you. Your doctor has all the ologies down pat. He/she is a living, breathing, walking, talking google machine!! Your doctor is your go-to guy. With regards to certainty, nobody can predict the future. You could stop using nicotine today, jog 15 miles a day, eat carrots and celery exclusively for the rest of your life and still drop dead of a heart attack 10 years from now. The next time your at work, ask everyone if milk is good for you or bad for you. I'll bet you don't get a clear answer. Hell, I grew up before the invention of bottled water. Does that mean my life span has been shortened? Am I supposed to think that tap water can hurt me? My dog drinks from the toilet, and he seems OK.

There have been COUNTLESS studies done on nicotine for years!! Science knows GOBS of crap about nicotine. Nicotine is sold over the counter in all 50 states. It can be found in a patch form, a pill form, a gum, a lozenge, inhalers(both oral and nasal), and in tobacco. Tobacco, however is the only form that has been linked to over 400,000 deaths a year. Nicotine is EXTREMELY hard to overdose on, if not impossible, as long as you use it in the manner in which it was intended to be used. If nicotine had a chance of killing you, you would need a prescription for it. Hell, Chantix has a higher chance to be more harmful than nicotine by itself. Thats why you need a doctor to prescribe it. The electronic cigarette, in the opinion of most doctors, is nothing more than another alternative form of nicotine replacement therapy. It's the same as the gum or the patch. If your doctor has suggested to you that you should use a NRT, then your doctor should have no problem with you using an e-cig. But don't take my word for it. Ask your doctor. Get on the phone right now and call his clinic. Tell the lady that you have a question for the doctor and that you want him to call you back. He'll call ya.

I have some other posts that you might like to read about nicotine. Just click on my profile and check out some of the topics I've posted about it. We're all here to help in any way we can. You really have found a great place to connect with other vapers.....

In the weeks to come your gonna start to feel great. As far as your fear of vasoconstriction goes, I'll leave you with this. The 400 nasty chemicals found in tobacco has wreaked havoc on your cardiovascular system. Nothing even comes close to harming you in the way that smoking has. As I'm sure your aware, stroke can happen for many different reasons, including hereditary reasons, so why YOU had a stroke, only your doctor can tell you. But probably the one best thing that YOU can personally do to lesson the chance of it happening again is to stop using tobacco. If that silly little thing keeps you from smoking analogs, then us it, cause damn......

Simple, huh?

Edited March 6, 2010 by Speakeasy

[FTJoe]

Hey - Simple, huh?

Speakeasy - how goes it? Long time. Wonderful post there. I was going to start trying to google to see if I can find out if anyone has postulated how much the damage to the cardiovascular system is the result of smoking, as opposed to nicotine. I was always under the impression it was the act of smoking. Anyway, you have excellent advice in regards to hardwired talking to their doctor. I guess my point all along in the other thread is worry about the smoking first, then reducing the nicotine. If you remember that's what I did, I had a dissection of the celiac artery (at 51) and wanted to take better care of myself. Okay, that's a lie, my wife was giving me heck about taking care of myself so I weaned off the nic as well. This thread really got me thinking I didn't have to but what the heck. I think it ended up costing me about 8 pounds extra because once I got done with the nic, the urge to vape went away. Once in a while I try some when working with others and I freak because while there is no throat hit with no nic, its brutal with even just 6 or 10.

[Speakeasy]

Hey Joe,

Good to hear from you too. My new job really keeps me away, I'm afraid, but I still check out the forum all the time. I don't post as much as most of the other regulars, but I make up for it in the length of my posts.

The effects of smoking on cardiovascular health is what it's all about, huh? You know as well as I how terrible smoking makes us feel over the years. It certainly doesn't take a doctor or study to tell us that smoking has damaged our bodies. But it really is difficult to find a study done on how nicotine alone can hurt us. Most studies assume that nicotine is delivered through tobacco, so it talks about the harm that "smoking" does. What I try to look for are those studies done with regard to NRTs. Because they take out the tobacco side-effects. Unfortunately, we find when we read these reports that the study was done by the company that makes the specific NRT. But, even though this may be true, we can still see that these NRTs are much safer for us than smoking.

NRTs are marketed and intended to help us quit smoking for good, as I'm sure you know. These products were never meant to be an alternative to smoking, but rather a way to help us quit using tobacco, so the studies that are done are focused on this specifically. The question is never really raised about what the effects would be if someone chose to forever use the patch as a means to avoid tobacco without battling the addiction.

E-cigs aren't marketed as a NRT though. They are meant to be an actual alternative to tobacco, providing all the relaxing and stimulating qualities of nicotine without the harmful side effects and nasty other effects of tobacco. This is what has everyone in such a turmoil, huh?

I do, however, commend you on your ability to quit the nicotine, and would never say that your not better off for having done it. One less thing to worry about.......

Edited March 6, 2010 by Speakeasy

[Mark]

+1 speak---well said

[FTJoe]

This is what has everyone in such a turmoil, huh?

LOL. Again, great to hear from you!!!

[hardwired]

Hey Hardwired,

Glad to read that you've recovered as well as you have from your stroke. It sounds like you've learned a very valuable lesson about health, so don't feel too bad about your past. We all tend to learn the hard way, it seems.

In searching for answers to all these questions, each of us find many conflicting things about whats known and whats not known about nicotine, tobacco, and the e-cig. The more you look on the internet, the more confusing it gets. If the report or document came from a supplier of a product in any industry involved with nicotine, it will be worded to slant the opinion to benefit that product. Any decent skeptic knows this already. If the report or document came from an independent scientific review, it most times was funded by a manufacturer or supplier of a product, and it can also be so filled with scientific jargon that it's hard to understand it fully. One thing your never going to find is a honest statement that reads, "You will be safe if you use/don't use this product/chemical/food/car/hand cream/ad nausium"...

I've read a lot of crap about nicotine. I've smoked for almost 30 years. I work in a hospital that specializes in substance abuse. I've been a nurse for 25 years. I know a gazillion doctors, pharmacists, counselors, lab technicians, respiratory therapists, and patients. Every person, EXCLUDING THE DOCTORS, that I talk to has a very different opinion about smoking and vaping. Every one of those opinions are based not only on their professional experience, but also on their personal experience. However, every one of the doctors I speak to about the e-cig has just one question. "Does that silly little thing keep you from smoking cigarettes? If yes, then use it, because tobacco is KILLING you!"

When I ask a physician about nicotine, they ALL say the EXACT SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!! nicotine doesn't kill.

In your comment, Hardwired, you wrote, "Is my addiction to nicotine, and the process of delivering it to my bloodstream by vapor inhalation, any less harmful to my neurological state? Unfortunately, no one can say with any real certainty. No long term data has been collected with respect to this. The hypothesis was presented in this thread about the stimulative effect nicotine as a vasoconstrictor has on the body's arteries...which honestly scares me."

I know that you went through a very serious event when you had your stroke, and I understand how comments about vasoconstriction can sound scary. Most people, after going through things like what you went through, want to educate themselves about their illness and try to learn as much as they can. I applaud this! I respect very much your wanting to know more. It's what all health care professionals want to see. So please know that by no means do I wish to make it seem as if what you know about stroke or smoking is wrong. But the comment you wrote, that I just quoted, is what moved me to write this reply.

OK look, your not going to get a complete, healthy understanding of what vasoconstriction REALLY means to YOUR health by just googling it. One needs to really study anatomy and physiology to a pretty advanced degree in order to be able to fully contemplate how it may effect you personally. Lol, I'm not saying that your incapable of grasping it, bud. I'm just saying that it's really technically advanced crap that involves not just A&P, but pharmacology, cardiology, and a whole bunch of other ologies as well. So lets just keep things simple, OK?

You said nobody can say with certainty how this stuff will effect you. But your wrong. Your doctor can tell you. Your doctor has all the ologies down pat. He/she is a living, breathing, walking, talking google machine!! Your doctor is your go-to guy. With regards to certainty, nobody can predict the future. You could stop using nicotine today, jog 15 miles a day, eat carrots and celery exclusively for the rest of your life and still drop dead of a heart attack 10 years from now. The next time your at work, ask everyone if milk is good for you or bad for you. I'll bet you don't get a clear answer. Hell, I grew up before the invention of bottled water. Does that mean my life span has been shortened? Am I supposed to think that tap water can hurt me? My dog drinks from the toilet, and he seems OK.

There have been COUNTLESS studies done on nicotine for years!! Science knows GOBS of crap about nicotine. Nicotine is sold over the counter in all 50 states. It can be found in a patch form, a pill form, a gum, a lozenge, inhalers(both oral and nasal), and in tobacco. Tobacco, however is the only form that has been linked to over 400,000 deaths a year. Nicotine is EXTREMELY hard to overdose on, if not impossible, as long as you use it in the manner in which it was intended to be used. If nicotine had a chance of killing you, you would need a prescription for it. Hell, Chantix has a higher chance to be more harmful than nicotine by itself. Thats why you need a doctor to prescribe it. The electronic cigarette, in the opinion of most doctors, is nothing more than another alternative form of nicotine replacement therapy. It's the same as the gum or the patch. If your doctor has suggested to you that you should use a NRT, then your doctor should have no problem with you using an e-cig. But don't take my word for it. Ask your doctor. Get on the phone right now and call his clinic. Tell the lady that you have a question for the doctor and that you want him to call you back. He'll call ya.

I have some other posts that you might like to read about nicotine. Just click on my profile and check out some of the topics I've posted about it. We're all here to help in any way we can. You really have found a great place to connect with other vapers.....

In the weeks to come your gonna start to feel great. As far as your fear of vasoconstriction goes, I'll leave you with this. The 400 nasty chemicals found in tobacco has wreaked havoc on your cardiovascular system. Nothing even comes close to harming you in the way that smoking has. As I'm sure your aware, stroke can happen for many different reasons, including hereditary reasons, so why YOU had a stroke, only your doctor can tell you. But probably the one best thing that YOU can personally do to lesson the chance of it happening again is to stop using tobacco. If that silly little thing keeps you from smoking analogs, then us it, cause damn......

Simple, huh?

Hey Speakeasy - appreciate the words of wisdom & advice..thx. I feel a certain kindredness after reading a lot of people's posts here. As for my doctor...he prescribed Chantix. Didn't work for me. The aspect of vaping was never mentioned as an alternative. I visit him once every 3 months for blood times and a check-up. I honestly never thought to call him before I made the decision to start vaping (lack of foresight, for sure). I certainly wasn't trying to sound like an expert or even a pundit on the subject. And I'm not trying to rain on the parade here, either. I was just laying it out there...my situation and concerns...seeing what others opinions were. Thx again for sharing yours

[hardwired]

Excellent add. My advice,FWIW, go decent nic for a little bit, get real comfy with vaping and then start. There have been studies indicating you don't get as much nic through vaping as you do a cig so not sure that should be an issue. Regardless, after another week or two, start cutting down. Easy peasy. I would say after 8-16 weeks, you should be at zero. I will look things up if I can, but I'm 50% sure, its smoking that kills the arteries, not nicotine. Have to find out for sure (if the data is there). As far as headaches and such go, there is a thread on side effects. I'm not saying you should ignore anything, but there are side effects.

That's what I'm going to do, move back up from 11 to 18mg and test out different flaves...in hopes of gradually moving down to 0 nic at some point. Thx again, dude!

[FTJoe]

That's what I'm going to do, move back up from 11 to 18mg and test out different flaves...in hopes of gradually moving down to 0 nic at some point. Thx again, dude!

NP - as I said, just trying to pay forward all the help I've gotten here...wishing you and yours all the best.

[vapehottie]

Until a reliable study comes along that tells me that the risks of vaping approach the risk of smoking tobacco, I will choose to vape. I have tried in the past to stop cigarettes using patches, pharmaceuticals, and gum. The result was the same...I'd stop for a while (as long as three years) and then start again. Right now, I have no desire to smoke tobacco. None! That is amazing. And from all that I've seen and read, this is a much better choice, health-wise. Is it completely safe? Probably not. There are still the negative effects of nicotine in my system. But the multitude of carcinogens have been eliminated.

The FDA is absolutely ridiculous in their approach, and the stop smoking organizations, including the American Heart Association are completely missing an opportunity to effect real change in the area of tobacco usage. There is also the economic factor. Can you imagine the number of jobs created, and the money put into the economy if they would get behind this and encourage American companies to start producing and selling e-cig kits and parts? It boggles my mind.

I agree with the FDA being ridiculous in how they are approaching the e cig issue. I think that the FDA just wants their piece of the pie as well as the Big tobacco companies that are trying to get on board but they are the ones pushing the FDA to do this. Everyone wants to make money and the FDA wants to regulate everything. I think the ecig businesses need to keep pushing to have their products on the market before these become obsolite.

On another note, I think that anything can be addictive. Since most of us are addicted to the nicotine, vaping is addictive. Even if you are vaping 0 nic you are addicted to the hand/mouth motions. That is a hard habit to break. I know that if I decide to go down on my nic level and go to zero, I probably will still vape just because I cannot break that habit. I enjoy my vaping though so I am not in a hurry to get off of it.