Is Vapor Addiction Real? I Think Its All About Choices.

[PennMason]

Ive been reading online in a few articles about possible vapor e-liquid addiction? I personally think this is silly. Smoking is a choice weather you smoke cigarettes or electronic cigarettes. Yes cigarettes are very addictive but e-cigarettes came into my life and help me cut down on tobacco and eventually quit that horrible habit, I loved to smoke when I was smoking cigarettes. I knew I wanted to quit because of the health effects. So yes I am thankful for Electronic Cigarettes and E-liquid. And so is my body,heart and most of all my lungs!

What I love is I personally can go a whole day without smoking my e-cig and then I will pick it up and take a few drags. So much better than a cigarette. The taste is so pleasing to me.

Some people ask me " well if your smoking e-cigs your still smoking right? Arent you going to quit that too?"

My answer to them is ...I enjoyed smoking cigarettes and dont have to anymore. I love a smoke with a beer or after dinner so NO...i dont want to quit smoking e-cigarettes. I enjoy it. Its my choice and I will smoke my electronic cigarettes until Im ready to stop. So the whole quiting smoking thing was never in the picture really, I just am thankful for the alternative to tobacco that I have in electronic cigarettes. I feel better and dont stink anymore. Im saving money!! So am I addicted to e-cigarettes? No I am not because if I wanted I would quit that too. Its a choice! Not an addiction. If a doctor told me nicotine is killing me than maybe I would think about it, but my doctor is proud of me for quiting tobacco and thinks my e-cigarette is the Dealio!

[Michelle]

Congratulations on quitting, Penn! I just ordered my first e-cig in hopes of doing the exact same thing. I think I will have a problem calling vaping "smoking", though. They are two different things, aren't they? I think they are.

[PennMason]

Congratulations on quitting, Penn! I just ordered my first e-cig in hopes of doing the exact same thing. I think I will have a problem calling vaping "smoking", though. They are two different things, aren't they? I think they are.

I agree and that's a good point. I think from now on if some asks. I don't smoke. I VAP! Im Vapping! A Vaporer LOL!

[Michelle]

I agree and that's a good point. I think from now on if some asks. I don't smoke. I VAP! Im Vapping! A Vaporer LOL!

But, to your is vapor addiction real question...since I have never done it, I can't say, but I imagine the nicotine addiction is still very real. And, beyond that, it's the action for me. That's what I missed most when I quit smoking for a couple months once. I like the hand to mouth action.

So, is it much different from any other addiction? Waking up and drinking coffee? The feeling of needing to eat sugar or salt? Chronic gum chewing? Alcohol? I don't know yet, but I'm guessing it's not all that different. I know, for me, I want this to be a means to an end. (Besides health concerns and how it stinks, I'm tired of having to carry extra "stuff" with me and keep track of it. Also worrying about having enough smokes to last through the day, etc. It's just getting old and annoying.) I'm hoping that I can cut my juice strengths down to zero nicotine eventually and be totally done with the addictions of nicotine and action and I can stop toting around the extra luggage.

[Brian]

Sure it's about choice. I chose to vape instead of smoke. I chose to use nicotine in my vape so that I don't have nicotine withdrawls and become jittery and irritable. If my doctor told me nicotine was killing me I'd say farewell cruel world. If I could stop using nicotine as easily as you say you can, I would do it and save the money. Yes, I really enjoy vaping, but I think much of the enjoyment comes from the fact that it's satisfying my addiction. If I had to go all day without nicotine I'd be a nervous wreck.

[Schizophretard]

If I had to go all day without nicotine I'd make everyone around me a nervous wreck.

[Lee]

Until a reliable study comes along that tells me that the risks of vaping approach the risk of smoking tobacco, I will choose to vape. I have tried in the past to stop cigarettes using patches, pharmaceuticals, and gum. The result was the same...I'd stop for a while (as long as three years) and then start again. Right now, I have no desire to smoke tobacco. None! That is amazing. And from all that I've seen and read, this is a much better choice, health-wise. Is it completely safe? Probably not. There are still the negative effects of nicotine in my system. But the multitude of carcinogens have been eliminated.

The FDA is absolutely ridiculous in their approach, and the stop smoking organizations, including the American Heart Association are completely missing an opportunity to effect real change in the area of tobacco usage. There is also the economic factor. Can you imagine the number of jobs created, and the money put into the economy if they would get behind this and encourage American companies to start producing and selling e-cig kits and parts? It boggles my mind.

[j3000]

Yeah It is addictive but I also look at the up side of the argument.

1) i Can walk out to my car in the middle of winter without losing my lungs.

2) I am not spending 300 a month for cigs.instead I am only spending 60

3) I don't keep my wife up all nite hacking up a lung

4) I can smell

5) I can afford satelite T.V

This is only a few things I can think oF

[FTJoe]

Nicotine is addictive, the act of smoking/vaping is not (IMHO), it is a learned as a result of an addiction...explained:

http://www.vaportalk.com/forum/forum/index.php?/topic/3551-nic-or-non-nic/page__view__findpost__p__29842

[mcquinn]

That is kind of why it works for those who wish to quit smoking ,you are replacing one addiction for another hopefully less destructive one.Nicotine is an addictive drug and the rest is a physical addiction .

[chrismonk]

To me it doesn't really matter so much whether or not I am addicted to vaping. I don't think that I really am because I can go for many hours without vaping with no problems. I could not go for more than an hour without a cigarette when I was smoking. That being said, I have no desire to lower my nicotine levels or make a plan to quit vaping. I really enjoy it, much more than smoking cigarettes! I know I am healthier because I can feel it. I know that I am saving money and I am a happy vaper! THIS IS THE DEALIO!!

Chris

[Speakeasy]

According to numerous scientific studies, done over the last 7-8 decades, nicotine is without question one of the most addictive substances known to man, period. Don't be fooled, don't be mis-led. Nicotine is harder to quit than heroine! THAT IS A FACT!!

But, what is also a fact is that nicotine, by its self, in normal doses, is virtually harmless. There has been THOUSANDS of studies done on nicotine, and they all say the same thing. The only harmful effects caused by nicotine addiction is in connection to inhaling the tar and harmful chemicals found in tobacco. If you switch completely from tobacco to the electronic cigarette, your health will improve in exactly the same way as if you had quit smoking all together. Thats why doctors love the e-cig so much. You can't get cancer from nicotine.

So is vaping nicotine addictive? 100% YES...

Is it the same as smoking? 100% NO....

Last year 400,000 people died from tobacco related causes... Last year 0 people died from vaping....

[FTJoe]

But, what is also a fact is that nicotine, by its self, in normal doses, is virtually harmless. There has been THOUSANDS of studies done on nicotine, and they all say the same thing. The only harmful effects caused by nicotine addiction is in connection to inhaling the tar and harmful chemicals found in tobacco. If you switch completely from tobacco to the electronic cigarette, your health will improve in exactly the same way as if you had quit smoking all together.

I would be curious if you could show a case where it's "virtually harmless". That is not my understandng so I take exception to the comment that one's health will improve exactly the same. I do not know for sure, that's why I'm asking. I'm not trying to be a pill, but I'm kind of rigid in regards to people saying there are no issues with e-cigs. The fact they come from China alone should give everyone pause... ;-)

From the wiki...which is ultimately just a wiki. There is no mention in regards to volume, but the wiki seems to be written assuming smoking is the vehicle for nicotine ingestion. I'm also concerned we have no good way of knowing how much nicotine we are ingesting by vaping. Please don't get me wrong, I think it's 1000% better than smoking.

"Nicotine has very powerful effects on arteries throughout the body. Nicotine is a stimulant, it raises blood pressure, and is a vasoconstrictor, making it harder for the heart to pump through the constricted arteries. It causes the body to release its stores of fat and cholesterol into the blood.[citation needed]

It has been speculated[who?] that nicotine increases the risk of blood clots by increasing plasminogen activator inhibitor-1, though this has not been proven."

[Speakeasy]

Hello FTJoe,

I have come to respect your opinion over the past few months, Joe, and I have read many of your posts. I was very leary of saying that the e-cig was harmless too. I wrote of few posts about nicotine back in early November and was very concerned about the nicotine content in PVs. I quit analogs at the end of October, and when I did I visited my doctor. We even did chest x-rays and blood tests, along with a complete physical to establish a base-line. This time next year we will be taking more x-rays to see how I'm progressing. I have high blood pressure and take medication for it every day, so I also am concerned about my heart. Let me try to explain my position and answer your question.

I've scoured the internet for studies done on the effects of nicotine. Most all of them (as you mentioned) are in connection with tobacco products.

But I have seen some studies done by makers of NRTs. These products, which contain nicotine, are sold over the counter and are deemed safe by the FDA. It is these same companies that report that nicotine, by it self, is virtually harmless. Thats why I use that word (virtually).

So what does virtually mean? Well, your right, nicotine is a stimulant, and can do all the things that you said it can do. But so does caffeine. The effects of the nicotine patch, or gum, or spray, even at it's highest strength levels are not something that normal people should worry too much about. But when you combine nicotine with the other 400 chemicals found in tobacco, you run the serious risk of a heart attack, stroke, and cancer. 90% of all cancers are linked to tobacco.

Dr. David Baron of the UCLA Medical Center has been interviewed in the past and addresses these issues much better than I can. Here's the link: Dr. Baron

Dr. Baron mentions that an overdose of nicotine could possibly cause symptoms like the ones you mention in your reply. So lets look at what it takes to OD on nicotine......

First off, it needs to be understood that the half-life of nicotine is extremely short, 40 minutes. What that means is that in under 2 hours, all nicotine in your system is gone! If you were blood tested for nicotine 80-120 minutes after ingesting nicotine, the test would be negative. An overdose of nicotine ranges from 60-80mg, depending on the individual. The average e-liquid contains about 24-36mg/ml. So if you were to drink 2-4mls of e-liquid straight, you would feel like you just did a serious line of cocaine. You would in effect be OVERDOSING on nicotine, and like cocaine or other stimulants, would be in serious risk of hurting yourself very badly. Oh, and the average analog smoke delivers about 1-2mg of nicotine per cigarette. It can therefore be concluded that overdosing on cigarettes, or e-cigarettes, is very hard to do....

So my point is this. I personally feel that the e-cigarette is possibly one of the GREATEST health-related products to be invented in the past 10 years. 400,000 people die from tobacco every year, and there are about 50 million tobacco users in the US alone. Imagine what this product can do to save the lives of countless people around the world. Other NRTs, with a success rate of 5%, don't hold a candle to the success rate of the e-cig. I guess your right that the e-cig was invented in China, but here's how I look at that. The guy that invented this thing was driven by the fact that his father was diagnosed with cancer and wouldn't give up the smokes even after being encouraged to do so. He made this thing with the idea in mind that it might save his Pop. It just so happens that he is Chinese. Chinese companies don't have the legislative restrictions that we have over here, which is too bad. We have the FDA, , which tries to protect us from harm, China doesn't. But it's not the bong that hurts you, bud. It's what you put in the bong. And most of the liquid this forum promotes is made in the USA. I don't know, but I think suppliers like VT have gone to great lengths to help protect it's customers from harm.

VT store's disclaimer is spot on. Chris includes the Surgeon's Generals warning, the fact that nicotine should not be used by pregnant and nursing mothers, that liquid should be kept away from children and pets. These are all important things to consider. Child-proof containers are great! But I would just hate myself if someone who is trying to quit analogs was scared off by the idea that the e-cig was harmful enough that they shouldn't try it. I hope you understand my position, Joe.

[christania]

I think this all boils down to the individual. Some people are able to quit without too much trouble, but I would venture to say that those people are not the majority. Most people who smoke do so because nicotine is addictive, yes. I think that people also keep doing it because they quite simply ENJOY it, and why shouldn't they enjoy it? Isn't that an effect the nicotine gives. I mean there has to be a reason it is so darn good feeling, right? Either way, ultimately it does boil down to a personal choice, but every individual is different in what they perceive themselves capable of. Maybe anybody is CAPABLE of quitting, but take it from someone who has quit and started back again more times than can even be counted. I always went back, because I LIKED it and it was a stress reliever for me. I could have stayed off them, but I went back because I missed the feeling of relaxation I got. At the end of the day there is nothing better than just being able to relax with cigarette (for a smoker). So that is why e-cigs have been so great so far. The benefits for someone who is a lifetime smoker seem to outweigh the drawbacks several fold. The way I see it, life is full of choices most of which are going to harm you in one way or another and in different degrees no matter what you choose. Maybe the trick is choosing the less harmful things. I'm not sure which habits out there could be considered completely safe. Smokers have been damned if they do and damned if the don't if you consider past alternatives. Then someone invents e-cigs and everything changes. Personally, I'm a happy little guinea pig so let the testing begin.

[Schizophretard]

Speakeasy,

Those posts were awesome!

[ddavelarsen]

Speakeasy,

Those posts were awesome!

Seconded. And a +1 for the post.

[Schizophretard]

I added my plus 1s!

[FTJoe]

Hello FTJoe,

I have come to respect your opinion over the past few months, Joe, and I have read many of your posts.

Uh oh - I hope I didn't offend?

You have a very well written argument. I will have to watch the video and do some research myself (not actual research, just googling). As I think I stated, I just don't know for sure, only what was my understanding. So if all of this is true, I would still hesitate to call vaping safe, just much much safer than smoking. That ultimately is my objection and I always make that point when talking to folks about the e-cig. It also makes another discussion on another thread even more interesting about how insurance companies use a nicotine test to establish whether someone is a smoker. Just in case anyone is following along and has an insurance test, a quick search is showing a period of 48 hours for the nicotine to disappear from the blood and urine. Perhaps it's very quickly gone from the blood, and would require two days to evacuate the urine? The other substance tested for is cotinine and can last up to 7 days. Of course opinions on this are wide and varied and some have to be just incorrect. And of course I am not suggesting someone should answer the smoking test incorrectly.

I think ultimately safety might be one of the things that kills e-cigs. Claims of safety by the knucklehead hawkers in the malls, ingestion of e-liquid by a child, something will happen and the FDA will latch on to it. That's why I certainly would love to see someone do a study on just nicotine effects, PG/VG inhalation effects, testing equipment, etc.

Edited January 25, 2010 by FTJoe

[Schizophretard]

Water is also much much safer than smoking but if you drink too much of it you can die from water intoxication. How safe must something be before you are comfortable calling it safe?

[FTJoe]

Water is also much much safer than smoking but if you drink too much of it you can die from water intoxication. How safe must something be before you are comfortable calling it safe?

I believe there are enough studies (not to mention anecdotal evidence) that water is safe. I will look to see what nicotine studies are out there, but it does appear to be pretty slim. So even with Speakeasy's excellent write-up, I think it would be rush to judgment to call nicotine safe, I believe unlike water, nicotine is considered a drug. And maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty sure it's generally accepted (right or wrong) that something physically addicting should probably not be considered safe.

[Michelle]

I believe there are enough studies (not to mention anecdotal evidence) that water is safe. I will look to see what nicotine studies are out there, but it does appear to be pretty slim. So even with Speakeasy's excellent write-up, I think it would be rush to judgment to call nicotine safe, I believe unlike water, nicotine is considered a drug. And maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty sure it's generally accepted (right or wrong) that something physically addicting should probably not be considered safe.

Sugar and caffeine are drugs. I'm not for or against in this "debate" of safety because I would like to know the answer as well. I'm just saying that a lot of things are considered drugs are *mostly* considered safe in moderation.

That being said, what worries me more than the nicotine is inhaling these substances into our lungs. Sure, it's safer than smoking analogs, but that doesn't make it fail proof.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Michelle

[jiffy]

I feel that the way vaping delivers nicotine to your body is not nearly as addictive as the way analogs deliver nicotine. I can go without vaping and not have the same cravings as I once had on analogs. I vape much much more than I ever smoked analogs. But, I needed an analog every so often to keep me sane. I vape all day long and I am able to put it down if needed or not vape all day depending on my surroundings.

[FTJoe]

Sugar and caffeine are drugs. I'm not for or against in this "debate" of safety because I would like to know the answer as well. I'm just saying that a lot of things are considered drugs are *mostly* considered safe in moderation.

That being said, what worries me more than the nicotine is inhaling these substances into our lungs. Sure, it's safer than smoking analogs, but that doesn't make it fail proof.

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, I understand about caffeine and that is basically Speakeasy's contention, nicotine when taking "normally" has about the same effect as caffeine which is minimal. If so, that is excellent news though I'm not sure you will ever have the FDA stop looking at nicotine as yet another caffeine. Both sugar and caffeine are available to anyone via a soda, coffee, candy. Drug or not, my acid test is do you need to keep a child proof cap on something to prevent a 4 year old from killing or injuring themselves? If the answer is yes, safety is an issue. I don't see a lot of child proof caps on sugar containers, sodas, etc. Of course maybe there should be but that's a different topic. ;-)

[FTJoe]

I feel that the way vaping delivers nicotine to your body is not nearly as addictive as the way analogs deliver nicotine. I can go without vaping and not have the same cravings as I once had on analogs. I vape much much more than I ever smoked analogs. But, I needed an analog every so often to keep me sane. I vape all day long and I am able to put it down if needed or not vape all day depending on my surroundings.

There is something weird (in a good way) about vaping. I was actually okay with no analogues at all, I think everyone from an addiction perspective is just different. My argument was two addictions, mental and physical, but ultimately I have no idea. And I call the mental part of it an addiction, but I think it's really just a Pavlovian response to the physical addiction. To your point, when I first went 0 nic it took a while for the withdrawal to actually start, my brain was okay just vaping away. My fear is the only studies that will ever be done will be to knock e-cigs down a notch. Would be nice to have actual answers to all these questions, we all feel comfortable with our choices and I know it's a good one for me but I guess I would love to see something verifying my assumptions.