Antifreeze

[BMW]

During my ecig research I came across a post in another forum that said antifreeze is made with

ethylene-glycol not propylene-glycol. Any comment? Also, can anyone tell me anything about vegetable glycol? Has anyone tried it? BMW

[keenan]

During my ecig research I came across a post in another forum that said antifreeze is made with

ethylene-glycol not propylene-glycol. Any comment? Also, can anyone tell me anything about vegetable glycol? Has anyone tried it? BMW

Yeah, theres no anti freeze in the juice. Thats one of those things the e cig haters WRONGLY try to tell people. And VG, Ive never used it, but I know a lot of people do. Some people have a reaction to PG, and VG is an alternative.

[oper8tor2]

many of the products we use can be good for us, or poisonous. it all depends on concentration. oxygen for example, in diluted form in the air is good. but a pure oxygen environment is very bad/poisonous.

PG in the correct concentration is an excellent disinfectant. don't worry, we aren't getting poisoned.

here is some info from EET corporation. keep in mind PG and EG are just the base ingredients in antifreeze.

What is the difference between ethylene glycol and propylene glycol?

Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are chemically similar. Ethylene glycol has the chemical formula C2H6O2. Propylene has the chemical formula C3H8O2. Ethylene glycol has a slightly higher boiling point than propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is less expensive to produce and is more widely used. Propylene glycol is less toxic.

Back to Top

I have seen propylene glycol based antifreeze sold as an environmentally friendly alternative to ethylene glycol based antifreeze. Is this true?

Both propylene glycol and ethylene glycol have similar biodegradability and will eventually break down into nontoxic byproducts. Neither should be dumped in the environment. Antifreeze picks up heavy metals such as lead during use in the engine. Therefore, both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol antifreezes should be returned to a recycling center to minimize harmful effects on our environment after use. Spills should be cleaned up immediately.

Ethylene glycol is more toxic than propylene glycol. Ingesting a small amount of ethylene glycol is far more dangerous for small children or animals, for example, than ingesting a small amount of propylene glycol. Take appropriate steps to prevent the ingestion of either ethylene or propylene glycol, as well as new or used engine coolants containing these glycols.

[Christopher]

During my ecig research I came across a post in another forum that said antifreeze is made with

ethylene-glycol not propylene-glycol. Any comment? Also, can anyone tell me anything about vegetable glycol? Has anyone tried it? BMW

Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are 2 different things.

And I think you mean Vegetable Glycerin not glycol. We refer to that as "VG" and there are quite a few suppliers that sell a VG mix. It tends to be a smoother hit with not quite as much vapor. Someone people love it others don't. Johnson Creek Smoke Juice was the first to do it I believe.

[DannyBoyfromWashington]

As to the toxicity of "propylene glycol",... My father in law has been working at the Hanford nuculear facility in richland, WA for over 25 years and whenever it is even suspected you may have been exposed to heavy metals or radioactive material you are required to ingest 1 litre of propylene glycol. So in over 25 years working there he says he has drank over 15 gallons of the stuff. It has the effect of absorbing heavy metals and radiation particles allowing your body to evacuate it naturaly ( I am sure you can guess how). He is now 62 and in fine health Of course you have to be one of the estimated 97% of Americans who are not allergic to it to be allowed to work there.

Hope this clears some thing up lol, I have drank a litre of it myself as part of the final interview process at Hanford.

propylene glycol safety

[Christopher]

As to the toxicity of "propylene glycol",... My father in law has been working at the Hanford nuculear facility in richland, WA for over 25 years and whenever it is even suspected you may have been exposed to heavy metals or radioactive material you are required to ingest 1 litre of propylene glycol. So in over 25 years working there he says he has drank over 15 gallons of the stuff. It has the effect of absorbing heavy metals and radiation particles allowing your body to evacuate it naturaly ( I am sure you can guess how). He is now 62 and in fine health Of course you have to be one of the estimated 97% of Americans who are not allergic to it to be allowed to work there.

Hope this clears some thing up lol, I have drank a litre of it myself as part of the final interview process at Hanford.

propylene glycol safety

Wow that's the first time even I HAVE ever heard of that. Good information thanks for sharing.

[DannyBoyfromWashington]

Wow that's the first time even I HAVE ever heard of that. Good information thanks for sharing.

Your very welcome, I have gotten tired of all the bad press and even though my father in law cannot officialy say what he does out there at the Hanford site I know he has an 8 year degree in chemical engineering so I decided to ask him about it. I got more info from him about it than I ever knew existed and thought that tidbit of our conversation could help clear up some confusion, along with the link to the safety and product usage information.

[BMW]

many of the products we use can be good for us, or poisonous. it all depends on concentration. oxygen for example, in diluted form in the air is good. but a pure oxygen environment is very bad/poisonous.

PG in the correct concentration is an excellent disinfectant. don't worry, we aren't getting poisoned.

here is some info from EET corporation. keep in mind PG and EG are just the base ingredients in antifreeze.

What is the difference between ethylene glycol and propylene glycol?

Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are chemically similar. Ethylene glycol has the chemical formula C2H6O2. Propylene has the chemical formula C3H8O2. Ethylene glycol has a slightly higher boiling point than propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is less expensive to produce and is more widely used. Propylene glycol is less toxic.

Back to Top

I have seen propylene glycol based antifreeze sold as an environmentally friendly alternative to ethylene glycol based antifreeze. Is this true?

Both propylene glycol and ethylene glycol have similar biodegradability and will eventually break down into nontoxic byproducts. Neither should be dumped in the environment. Antifreeze picks up heavy metals such as lead during use in the engine. Therefore, both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol antifreezes should be returned to a recycling center to minimize harmful effects on our environment after use. Spills should be cleaned up immediately.

Ethylene glycol is more toxic than propylene glycol. Ingesting a small amount of ethylene glycol is far more dangerous for small children or animals, for example, than ingesting a small amount of propylene glycol. Take appropriate steps to prevent the ingestion of either ethylene or propylene glycol, as well as new or used engine coolants containing these glycols.

Thanks for all the info. I knew there is no actual antifreeze in ejuice but I've already got family and friends putting their two cents in about vaping and I haven't even vaped yet! I need to be prepared for an intelligent argument.

[oper8tor2]

As to the toxicity of "propylene glycol",... My father in law has been working at the Hanford nuculear facility in richland, WA for over 25 years and whenever it is even suspected you may have been exposed to heavy metals or radioactive material you are required to ingest 1 litre of propylene glycol. So in over 25 years working there he says he has drank over 15 gallons of the stuff. It has the effect of absorbing heavy metals and radiation particles allowing your body to evacuate it naturaly ( I am sure you can guess how). He is now 62 and in fine health Of course you have to be one of the estimated 97% of Americans who are not allergic to it to be allowed to work there.

Hope this clears some thing up lol, I have drank a litre of it myself as part of the final interview process at Hanford.

propylene glycol safety

thats an eye opener for me! i've been working the outages at diablo canyon nuke plant in central california for the last 15 years. i have to deal with external contamination from time to time.the radiation techs use a little tape to pluck it off or scrub a bit for the stubborn stuff. i never spoke with anyone that had internal contamination though. i know we ingest pg in many of the products we use daily. i'll definetly seek out a chem tech for a more advanced radiation education than they have been giving us thus far. we have a reactor head replacement coming up.

i guess they think us construction grunts can't understand that there chemistry stuff.

thank you very much for the insight!!!!

[BMW]

As to the toxicity of "propylene glycol",... My father in law has been working at the Hanford nuculear facility in richland, WA for over 25 years and whenever it is even suspected you may have been exposed to heavy metals or radioactive material you are required to ingest 1 litre of propylene glycol. So in over 25 years working there he says he has drank over 15 gallons of the stuff. It has the effect of absorbing heavy metals and radiation particles allowing your body to evacuate it naturaly ( I am sure you can guess how). He is now 62 and in fine health Of course you have to be one of the estimated 97% of Americans who are not allergic to it to be allowed to work there.

Hope this clears some thing up lol, I have drank a litre of it myself as part of the final interview process at Hanford.

propylene glycol safety

Great info, great argument for all the nay sayers. Thank you.

Going a little off topic here but--I'm origenally from Washington, born in Everett. Family all from Snohomish and Sultan. Last visit up there was in 03. Couldn't believe how exspensive anologs are. My brother-in-Law had started rolling his own. Wish I had have known about ecigs back then.

[ddavelarsen]

This is in no way as crucial or interesting as DannyBoy's great info, but I had a conversation today that I wanted to share here and now have the perfect opportunity.

My potential son-in-law is a high-rent welder; he does a lot of welding for flammable gas installations and in hospitals and the like. They often build refrigeration/HVAC equipment. We were talking about vaping and he's very familiar with propylene glycol. He said it's often used in hospitals as a coolant in the AC system because it's far less toxic than other alternatives, though it's more expensive. He said ethylene glycol has a much lower freezing point and is a lot less expensive, but not as safe. Pretty cool guy, actually; one hell of a welder. I used to work in the natural gas fields and knew a lot of pipeline welders; it's a seriously nit-picky job. A lot of their welds have to be x-rayed before they can be approved. Izzy does the same work, and I know enough about that kind of welding to know he's never tried to pull a story on me.

I'm adding Danny's PG safety info to my vaping propaganda CD. Thanks!

[mcquinn]

PG based antifreeze is also used to winterize R.V. water systems.It is becoming the standard coolant as it is less toxic.It is one of those things we would have a tough time living without .I do HVAC/R in the local hospital and we do use it in our chilled water loops that are subject to freezing.

[SteveD1]

As to the toxicity of "propylene glycol",... My father in law has been working at the Hanford nuculear facility in richland, WA for over 25 years and whenever it is even suspected you may have been exposed to heavy metals or radioactive material you are required to ingest 1 litre of propylene glycol. So in over 25 years working there he says he has drank over 15 gallons of the stuff. It has the effect of absorbing heavy metals and radiation particles allowing your body to evacuate it naturaly ( I am sure you can guess how). He is now 62 and in fine health Of course you have to be one of the estimated 97% of Americans who are not allergic to it to be allowed to work there.

Hope this clears some thing up lol, I have drank a litre of it myself as part of the final interview process at Hanford.

propylene glycol safety

So if there is like a Nuke War we need to Vape real heavy and we will be okay!!!LOL

Another reason to stock up!!!

[SmokinHammer]

So in over 25 years working there he says he has drank over 15 gallons of the stuff.

DannyBoy, you just blew my mind!

Edited January 4, 2010 by SmokinHammer

[BirdDog]

As to the toxicity of "propylene glycol",... My father in law has been working at the Hanford nuculear facility in richland, WA for over 25 years and whenever it is even suspected you may have been exposed to heavy metals or radioactive material you are required to ingest 1 litre of propylene glycol. So in over 25 years working there he says he has drank over 15 gallons of the stuff. It has the effect of absorbing heavy metals and radiation particles allowing your body to evacuate it naturaly ( I am sure you can guess how). He is now 62 and in fine health Of course you have to be one of the estimated 97% of Americans who are not allergic to it to be allowed to work there.

Hope this clears some thing up lol, I have drank a litre of it myself as part of the final interview process at Hanford.

propylene glycol safety

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud or to question what you have posted, but is it possible that it is actually Polyethylene Glycol and not Propylene Glycol? Polyethylene Glycol is prescribed in gallon jugs to be used a flushing agent (laxative) for the intestinal tract before a colonoscopy and surgery. I am just asking, because I made a simialr mistake a few months ago. I did not read in the Wiki article where it absorbs the radio active material. But when I looked up Polyethylene Glycol it mentioned that it was being tested for these purposes: My link

1. High-molecular weight PEG, e.g., PEG 8000, has been shown to be a dietary preventive agent against colorectal cancer in animal models.

2. The Chemoprevention Database shows it is the most effective agent to suppress chemical carcinogenesis in rats. Cancer prevention in humans has not yet been tested in clinical trials.

Edited January 4, 2010 by BirdDog

[DannyBoyfromWashington]

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud or to question what you have posted, but is it possible that it is actually Polyethylene Glycol and not Propylene Glycol? Polyethylene Glycol is prescribed in gallon jugs to be used a flushing agent (laxative) for the intestinal tract before a colonoscopy and surgery. I am just asking, because I made a simialr mistake a few months ago. I did not read in the Wiki article where it absorbs the radio active material. But when I looked up Polyethylene Glycol it mentioned that it was being tested for these purposes: My link

1. High-molecular weight PEG, e.g., PEG 8000, has been shown to be a dietary preventive agent against colorectal cancer in animal models.

2. The Chemoprevention Database shows it is the most effective agent to suppress chemical carcinogenesis in rats. Cancer prevention in humans has not yet been tested in clinical trials.

Well that is a good question, I will have to ask him to be sure if it has been the same thing all the time. What I do know is the stuff they had me drink was definitely labeled propylene glycol. I will ask him to double check his memory and incident evaluation reports to be sure since his longer term exposure means alot more than my 1 litre Get back to ya on this soon,...

[AngelCruz]

its odd I see you guys talk about this as I went to wal-mart today I had my mom on the celly chit chatting to her and she asked what I had to buy as I laughed with her and explained what the glycerin was for her first comment Was," WHY are you constipated ?" LMAO needless to say after dropping the phone almost running off the road laughing so hard I fully explained that my purpose for getting the glycerin was for and that no Mom I'm not constipated,

her instant reply was well "back in the day before other laxatives thats what we took if you were we had to drink it or castor oil and I hated both" so my view clicked agian if a woman in her 70's has took and is in great health how can anyone doubt that it is harmful to us today just had to share that I'm still laughing at the moment of generalise incident that my mom would ask me that outta the blue I had no clue it was used for those purposes.

Sooooo Long Ex-lax !!!! Bwhahaahahahaaaa

[DannyBoyfromWashington]

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud or to question what you have posted, but is it possible that it is actually Polyethylene Glycol and not Propylene Glycol? Polyethylene Glycol is prescribed in gallon jugs to be used a flushing agent (laxative) for the intestinal tract before a colonoscopy and surgery. I am just asking, because I made a simialr mistake a few months ago. I did not read in the Wiki article where it absorbs the radio active material. But when I looked up Polyethylene Glycol it mentioned that it was being tested for these purposes: My link

1. High-molecular weight PEG, e.g., PEG 8000, has been shown to be a dietary preventive agent against colorectal cancer in animal models.

2. The Chemoprevention Database shows it is the most effective agent to suppress chemical carcinogenesis in rats. Cancer prevention in humans has not yet been tested in clinical trials.

Ok, he finaly had a chance to check some records and confirmed "Propylene-Glycol USP grade"

[FTJoe]

Happened to run across this thread (I was busy when it started) and wanted to point out there can be a world of difference between ingesting something via the stomach versus the lungs. Many things can go into the stomach that just shouldn't be introduced via the lungs. And personally I am more worried about what isn't absorbed into the bloodstream and might be left on the lungs. The lungs are a very sensitive area, damage is more often not reparable. This is one reason I was hoping to cut down on vaping after cutting down on the nicotine. We can not be sure of the effects of this because as far as I know, there aren't any really good studies out there.

Just wanted to point that out as I wouldn't use it as defacto argumemt this is safe. Having said all that, do I believe this is a much safer alternative than smoking? Absolutely. Can I prove its safe, or at least safer? Absolutely not. This is one reason I always felt I wouldn't mind the FDA/FTC getting involved without the Big Industry money trying to direct them to kill this industry.

[MD864]

Happened to run across this thread (I was busy when it started) and wanted to point out there can be a world of difference between ingesting something via the stomach versus the lungs. Many things can go into the stomach that just shouldn't be introduced via the lungs. And personally I am more worried about what isn't absorbed into the bloodstream and might be left on the lungs. The lungs are a very sensitive area, damage is more often not reparable. This is one reason I was hoping to cut down on vaping after cutting down on the nicotine. We can not be sure of the effects of this because as far as I know, there aren't any really good studies out there.

Just wanted to point that out as I wouldn't use it as defacto argumemt this is safe. Having said all that, do I believe this is a much safer alternative than smoking? Absolutely. Can I prove its safe, or at least safer? Absolutely not. This is one reason I always felt I wouldn't mind the FDA/FTC getting involved without the Big Industry money trying to direct them to kill this industry.

OK guys - FTJoe here has a point, one that i've pondered myself. Any replies to this one?

[NeRo9k]

That's a nice tid bit of information, thanks for sharing.

[BirdDog]

Ok, he finaly had a chance to check some records and confirmed "Propylene-Glycol USP grade"

Ahhh... I was thinking about this thread the other night. Thanks for coming back and posting the confirmation.

[DannyBoyfromWashington]

Happened to run across this thread (I was busy when it started) and wanted to point out there can be a world of difference between ingesting something via the stomach versus the lungs. Many things can go into the stomach that just shouldn't be introduced via the lungs. And personally I am more worried about what isn't absorbed into the bloodstream and might be left on the lungs. The lungs are a very sensitive area, damage is more often not reparable. This is one reason I was hoping to cut down on vaping after cutting down on the nicotine. We can not be sure of the effects of this because as far as I know, there aren't any really good studies out there.

Just wanted to point that out as I wouldn't use it as defacto argumemt this is safe. Having said all that, do I believe this is a much safer alternative than smoking? Absolutely. Can I prove its safe, or at least safer? Absolutely not. This is one reason I always felt I wouldn't mind the FDA/FTC getting involved without the Big Industry money trying to direct them to kill this industry.

Well I am sure it is not 100% safe ( is anything?). But I do know it is prety dang safe since they have used it in alot of hospitals as base for nebulization treatments and for cleaning, as well as in hospital grade air fresheners and ventilation systems. Also there is the study printed in time magazine about medicinal benefits of the vapor against airborn viruses. So considering all the good that has been found about it's use in the air and the lack of bad given the same ammount of time, I would have to conclude for now that it is either equaly harmfull or less harmfull than the air breathed while walking down a city street. just my $0.02

[mcquinn]

You would think as much as I vape I wouldn't be so cold.They put PG in RV water systems to winterize them and not contaminate them.

[FTJoe]

Well I am sure it is not 100% safe ( is anything?). But I do know it is prety dang safe since they have used it in alot of hospitals as base for nebulization treatments and for cleaning, as well as in hospital grade air fresheners and ventilation systems. Also there is the study printed in time magazine about medicinal benefits of the vapor against airborn viruses. So considering all the good that has been found about it's use in the air and the lack of bad given the same ammount of time, I would have to conclude for now that it is either equaly harmfull or less harmfull than the air breathed while walking down a city street. just my $0.02

Totally agree - I think one of the issues of the studies they did do is they are old and didn't quite study it at the levels we inhale. Just wish we had some good current studies. I wouldn't doubt the tobacco/pharm industry did some, didn't find any issues and so didn't publish!!! Well, maybe that's a little too conspiracy theory...

I insist, with no basis in fact whatsoever, this is safer than smoking!!!! ;-) That's what I usually tell folks. My biggest concerns are the liquids and parts from China. Look at the news today, they stopped putting lead in the toys, went for cadmium instead, even more dangerous. Who wouldn't want a little more quality control and safety addressed with this even if it bumped the cost up? Too bad the only thought of the government is how to ban it as opposed to make it safe, you can't tell me someone doesn't have money behind that. Some assemblywoman from NJ a little while back started up on banning it, I figured she got some nice money dumped in her election coffers.