RTA build and finding sweet spot range

[SteveH]

Greetings..... I've been out of vaping for a few months, but left loving my RTAs after graduating from sub ohm tank coils.  I've hit a total brain freeze in my rebuilding in regards to finding my sweet spot range after I do my build.  I'm probably over analyzing this, but still curious.  I'll build my coils onto my tank (Avocado) and will use a Ohm calculator via a app on my phone and that would give me a great sweet spot range to try based on my number of wraps, resistance, etc..  But my question would be if I bought pre-made coils.  Other than fiddling, how can I find my sweet spot range?  Would I have to count the wraps, go by the diameter of wrap, etc.?

[Bebop]

let me try to understand and help you.

When you say "sweet spot" what exaxctly are you referring to? A wattage?  A flavor ? Cloud production? 

Most of us refer to a sweet spot as a combination of things, typically a coil resistance we prefer and a power level applied to that that yields a certain flavor and or clouds.

I build my coils to my preference.  I don't build a coild then find sweet spot after that.   I think most builders have worked out by trial what they like, then build to that configuration.

Do you know what resistance(s) you like?  Do you build for flavor or for clouds or both?

I recommend using a calculator to build to a couple of different resistances and try them out.  When you are first figuring it out, use a voltage range (3.8 - 4.8 roughly) and let the wattage fall where it may.  Then when you find your sweet spot build your coils to target that resistance and wattage combination.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Bebop

[SteveH]

Thanks Bebop.... I do prefer flavor over cloud.  It's hard for me to think to put in words what I am trying to describe, but thanks for taking a stab at it. 

I guess ultimately, I want to build for flavor and using my calculator (I use Vape Tool Pro for my Android Phone), I generally build .5 coils.  What should I be shooting for in regards to stronger flavor?

I think what I was trying to figure out in my original question, but having a hard time explaining.... If I buy pre-made coils, I am unsure where to start (wattage) other than beginning low and working my way up.  For example, I bought premade GM Coils - clapton 26g A1 + 38g TM N80 at 6 wraps on a 3mm bit.  Label shows .2 Ohm (dual) which is pretty much spot on.  So what I was wondering is where is a good wattage to start at and perhaps a average wattage range that one may use.  I do understand that is subjective to the individual.  And, how do you get to that starting point (calculator, etc).

I realize different tanks, coils, etc. will all produce different results from one to the other.  For example, I vape my Avocado 24 around 40-50 watts and found that is the best I can get for me, however it's really no flavor.  Lowering and raising the wattage doesn't get anything better.  Yet if I run my TFV8 with the pre-made T8 .15 ohm coil at 120 watts, I get great flavor.  I know, different set ups.  

I'd love to find great flavor with my Avocado and Griffen RTAs and ultimately looking for what I should build at for xx recommended wattage.  Hope that is little easier to understand, I am at a lose for exactly how to explain it

** On a side note, I am reading some threads about flavor and learning about top vs bottom airflow and about different wire affecting flavor too.  So that helps... Think I just need to find what you mentioned above and that would be building for my preference and sticking with that.

Edited February 26, 2017 by SteveH

[FXRich]

50 minutes ago, SteveH said:

I realize different tanks, coils, etc. will all produce different results from one to the other.  For example, I vape my Avocado 24 around 40-50 watts and found that is the best I can get for me, however it's really no flavor.  Lowering and raising the wattage doesn't get anything better.  Yet if I run my TFV8 with the pre-made T8 .15 ohm coil at 120 watts, I get great flavor.  I know, different set ups.  

Generally the higher the resistance the better the flavor. The TFV8 has 8 1.2 ohm coils. A single .15 coil won't give the same flavor as single 1.2 coil, when you get 8 1.2 coils firing at once you get a lot of cloud, and a lot of flavor.  

[Bebop]

Cool.  

I think in general it's hard to really state what a flavor build is.   Probably because it's so subjective.  It's easy to build for clouds.  Flavor is more ellusive.  I don't know why that is.  Perhaps because many more things contribute to flavor.   Flavor appears to be sensitive.  For clouds you need power and airflow. Pretty simple. 

I have a couple of observations and a couple of theories about flavor.

Juice - In the good old days before everybody went batcrap crazy about diacetyl and other additives in ejuice, it used to taste great.  And it wasn't that hard to make it taste great.  It tasted great as long as you didn't scorch it.  It tasted great at 9 watts and it tasted great at 50 watts.  

Dual (or more) coils almost always create  more flavor.  I have no idea why,  since it doesnt seem to be just about clouds.  Perpaps it's surface area. I don't know.  For whatever reason, more cloud does not mean more flavor.  

My sweet spot is 3mm (single or dual) .5 - .6 ohm about 25W - 35W.   But I also love a .8 at about 20W on certain juices.  I rarely vape at 40W or more unless Im fooling with a low ohm RDA for fun. It's just not my thing.  I personally don't see the attraction of massive clouds and wasting juice. 

I do love a good cloud with great flavor.  I'll take flavor any day and i find that in the .5 - .8 range

 

[Walt]

Airflow and wicking have so much to do with flavor.  I'm pretty new to building myself, maybe a dozen or so builds, but I have found huge differences between tanks and juices as well.  VTMN Island and VTMN Purple, will both give massive flavor in my built Big Baby Beast with a .3Ω build and 110 watts.  I have a Sense RTD 2 with a .6Ω build that will start tasting roasted @ 50 watts on long draws.  Obviously overdrawing and heating the wicks.  I plan on testing different resistance builds as time goes by on each of these.  If there is a formula for this, I surely don't know it.  Especially the wicking capacity. 

[SteveH]

Let me ask this, is it normal for flavor to be better with pre-built coils than my own built rta coils? Seems I'm getting great flavor in older Atlantis tank and Melo tank than my Griffin rta and Avocado rta? Or am I not building for best flavor? My Avocado has 26g kathal, 6 wraps for point 5 ohm.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using The Vapor Talk mobile app

[Walt]

I like the DIY builds better than commercial coils.  I have a couple of GeekVape Tsunami's that is use for a baseline for flavor.  I haven't got the same flavor out of a tank yet, but I'm getting closer. 

[Bebop]

That is another funny phenomenon.

In my subtank mini RBA deck I can build a better coil than factory.  I get consistently better flavor that the store bought coil. 

 

But in my zephyrus RBA deck I get a good build (dual) and a happy one but I can't seem to beat the premade dual coils flavor.  However that flavor on the factory coils drops off heavily after a couple days while my coils hum along for a week or two with consistent flavor.  

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bebop

[FXRich]

I build my Subtank mini RBA decks with a SS .5 coil, and get good flavor and good cloud, better than the factory .5 coil.

I rebuild my Kanger OCC coils with a .8 kanthal coil, and get good flavor, the factory 1.2 coils give good flavor, but not much cloud, the .5 OCC factory coils give more cloud than the 1.2, but less flavor.

[SteveH]

I didn't have 24g Kanthal on hand, but I had 22.  I did a dual coil 10 wraps at .33 ohm for my Avocado and found it's flavor much much better than the previous build.  I'm vaping that at 85 watts.  Thanks for the advice on build for preference and stick with that.  Once I find my "right" preference, I will do that.  I'm not sure of the pro/con of the 22g over 24g, but when I am back at the shop I'll pick up some 24g.

[Tam]

The PG/VG ratio in your juice can also affect flavor. PG is your flavor carrier so more PG = more flavor but also more throat hit and thinner juice, not a cloud maker. VG is your vapor, smoother hit, a tad bit sweeter but thicker juice so it can clog coils faster. Many people go around 60% or 70% VG with their juices and get the most out of the flavor, plenty of vapor, and an overall satisfying vape. What are you using now?

[FXRich]

6 hours ago, SteveH said:

I didn't have 24g Kanthal on hand, but I had 22.  I did a dual coil 10 wraps at .33 ohm for my Avocado and found it's flavor much much better than the previous build.  I'm vaping that at 85 watts.  Thanks for the advice on build for preference and stick with that.  Once I find my "right" preference, I will do that.  I'm not sure of the pro/con of the 22g over 24g, but when I am back at the shop I'll pick up some 24g.

Using 24g instead of 22g you will need less wraps. Less wraps mean less wire to heat up using the same ohms, you may notice your coil will heat up faster.

[Cloudwarrior]

I know the "micro coil calculator" app give an optimal reading. But I'm new to coil building myself and havent played around too much to see how the optimal setting work or differ just yet

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

[Walt]

3 hours ago, Cloudwarrior said:

I know the "micro coil calculator" app give an optimal reading. But I'm new to coil building myself and havent played around too much to see how the optimal setting work or differ just yet

It's a tapestry of things that make a great vape.  Every tank or RDA is different.  Different airflow.  Different wicking.  I have yet found the recommended setting from the coil calculator to be what I like best.  That's part of the fun of building for me.  Is this build underwicking?  Is it overwicking?  Do I think it will handle a "hotter" build?  How do I want to use this tank?  Do I want it to be a flavor blasting, juice guzzling dessert treat or an all day workhorse?  A dual coil costs less than $0.25 to build in most cases.  I don't mind experimenting a bit.  I've been doing a lot of approx. .3Ω builds lately that are giving me a very decent wattage range to play with, fairly decent battery life.  Decent vapor production with 70VG/30PG juice and really nice flavor.  Using a 26ga SSL that's about 8 wraps per coil @ 3mm.  Easy to fit in many RTA's as a nice spaced coil. 

[Adversarious1]

22 hours ago, FXRich said:

Using 24g instead of 22g you will need less wraps. Less wraps mean less wire to heat up using the same ohms, you may notice your coil will heat up faster.

On the flip side, using 22g with more wraps to get to the same resistance provides for more surface area on the coil(s) which in turn allows for more liquid to be vaporized.  That can lead to more vapor and flavor, or it can be a complete disaster all the way around.  It's all about experimentation and finding your personal preference(s) though.