Whats going on with purchasing e-liquid online?

[Patricia]

Here lately my email is full of online vapor stores that sell e-liquid are offering their liquid at large discounts. One of my favorite stores has everything liquid in their store for 80%. Does anyone know what's up with that?

[spydre]

My guess would be the shops that make their own juice are either reducing the number of juices they manufacture because of the PMTA required, or stop selling them altogether.

[Patricia]

13 minutes ago, spydre said:

My guess would be the shops that make their own juice are either reducing the number of juices they manufacture because of the PMTA required, or stop selling them altogether.

Hey Spydre. I'm behind in times I guess because I don't have a clue what you mean by what PMTA requirements are.

[Christopher]

That's exactly what it is. And holy moly, let me get you up to speed with PMTA. (You know what, I need to make some bullins about this on the forum. I get so wrapped up on things I forget to push the information down sometimes) 

PMTA is regulation that was passed by the FDA on August of last year. The enforcement period starts to happen this year. It goes into full force the end of next year. The gist of it is this, no new products can be sold on the market as of August 28th, 2016. Unless it was sold or available before that date. The real issue though is the e liquid. There is a list of tasks vendor most complete if they want to remain on the market. 

1. Submit manufacture information to the FDA (Vapor Talk just passed this phase) as required. Failure to do so could result in fines and/or worse. 

2. Ingredient submission ( the deadline was this month but, it's been pushed back another 6 months). e Liquid manufacturers must test and submit ingredients to the FDA by the next deadline. (Vapor Talk Black Label has certification right no the product page. We share the info publicly) 

3. The big one... PMTA is extremly complicated but the gist of it is this: We must go through human trials among a full blown list of other requirements in order to continue selling eliquid and other hardware products beyond the end of 2018. As it stands, if using a consulting firm or similar the cost is roughly 800,000 - 1 million dollars PER SKU. (One flavor, 3 strengths would cost between  600,000 and 3 million dollars depending on a number of different factors) If you don't adhere to PMTA or cannot afford it, you must pull your products before the deadline. Additionally there are labeling requirements (for example no cartoon characters, no candy type images etc) This is were most of the dumping of products can been seen. In fact I've seen a ton of vendors selling pretty close to cost. 

 

Right now a number of companies do not plan to go through PMTA. They are selling off their bulk and will close down. (They don't want to advertise this for fear you'll stop buying their brand and opt to use another because customers want consistency) Totally Wicked for example, have been around forever. Since we started. They are pulling out of the US market and will only operate in Europe. As it stands, if things don't change, 95+% of the vendors you shop with now will no longer be in business. Most of your favorite products will no longer be available if they aren't PMTA registered. (That's almost all of them) It's not.. looking good. 

The attitude many of is "I mix my own stuff I'm not worried." That's true, but that doesn't mean it won't still have a huge effect on device and supplies. Most won't or don't mix their own products. I hate to think of how many people will continue using traditional tobacco after the vaping industry goes under in the US. 

You can read more about PMTA here: https://www.vaportalk.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-pmta/

So to answer, Yes vendors are selling of eliquids cheap and it's because of PMTA. (The VT store even has a sale on a number of eliquids under the deals page. Most at close to cost. No profit margins) 

[spydre]

And Chris, for those of us who mix at home, eventually, nicotine will no longer be able to be sold to the general public, is that correct?

And I guess I'm lucky - my store is getting PMTAs for almost all of their juices, but to cut down on the number they have to file and pay for, some will be only be 30/70, some will only be a house blend of 60/40, etc.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by spydre

[Christopher]

2 hours ago, spydre said:

And Chris, for those of us who mix at home, eventually, nicotine will no longer be able to be sold to the general public, is that correct?

And I guess I'm lucky - my store is getting PMTAs for almost all of their juices, but to cut down on the number they have to file and pay for, some will be only be 30/70, some will only be a house blend of 60/40, etc.

 

 

It probably wouldn't be impossible, but at the very least you couldn't buy it from any vape based store. (It's not worth the fines/risk for most) 

I think if your determined enough, well, you can buy just about anything on the internet. But generally speaking, it will become much more difficult and less readily available. There are at least 4 stores that are linked to this forum fairly often that I know plan to bow out in 2018 (end). They are some of our competitors but it pains me to see them go. I'd rather a business leave because of crappy decision making or the free market at work, not because of some ridiculous, makes absolutely zero sense legislation. 

[spydre]

8 minutes ago, Christopher said:

It probably wouldn't be impossible, but at the very least you couldn't buy it from any vape based store. (It's not worth the fines/risk for most) 

I think if your determined enough, well, you can buy just about anything on the internet. But generally speaking, it will become much more difficult and less readily available. There are at least 4 stores that are linked to this forum fairly often that I know plan to bow out in 2018 (end). They are some of our competitors but it pains me to see them go. I'd rather a business leave because of crappy decision making or the free market at work, not because of some ridiculous, makes absolutely zero sense legislation. 

I absolutely agree with you there.  Everyone agrees that e-cigarettes are better than cigarettes, but the sellers are being forced out of the market.  In the mean time, my store had to rent up additional space just to make their mix lab in accordance with regulations.

[Tam]

9 hours ago, Patricia said:

Hey Spydre. I'm behind in times I guess because I don't have a clue what you mean by what PMTA requirements are.

Compenstine's Fadora Vapor closed due to these restrictions coming down.   

[Earthling789]

11 hours ago, Christopher said:

It probably wouldn't be impossible, but at the very least you couldn't buy it from any vape based store. (It's not worth the fines/risk for most) 

I think if your determined enough, well, you can buy just about anything on the internet. But generally speaking, it will become much more difficult and less readily available. There are at least 4 stores that are linked to this forum fairly often that I know plan to bow out in 2018 (end). They are some of our competitors but it pains me to see them go. I'd rather a business leave because of crappy decision making or the free market at work, not because of some ridiculous, makes absolutely zero sense legislation. 

Nicotine will still be available, but it may be only from a few, well-controlled sources, which will cause the prices to rise, due to less competition for sales

Competition is the biggest part of the free-market... more and more vapor shops and manufacturers will close in 2018, which will shrink the market and drive prices higher... which is exactly what the FDA regulations were designed to do... shrink (or eliminate) the market so that traditional tobacco (cigarettes/cigars) become more readily available and cheaper than vaping.

It pains me to see stores closing too (B&M's and online)... regulation and legislation should protect consumers, not big-business interests (by eliminating competition)!

[Patricia]

And I would gather up all I could while it is still available but Juice DOES expire. I have kept some I was not crazy about for over a year and it had turned almost black and the darker it gets it stops up the coils quickly. So once its gone, its gone because I have never learned how to make it. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to go back to the alternative.

[Christopher]

10 hours ago, Patricia said:

And I would gather up all I could while it is still available but Juice DOES expire. I have kept some I was not crazy about for over a year and it had turned almost black and the darker it gets it stops up the coils quickly. So once its gone, its gone because I have never learned how to make it. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to go back to the alternative.

That's odd. I've got some VT e-liquid here that's almost 4 years old and other than being a bit cloudy, looks almost the same. It shouldn't turn black... 

[Earthling789]

17 hours ago, Patricia said:

And I would gather up all I could while it is still available but Juice DOES expire. I have kept some I was not crazy about for over a year and it had turned almost black and the darker it gets it stops up the coils quickly. So once its gone, its gone because I have never learned how to make it. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to go back to the alternative.

Yes, it does eventually expire, but if you want to store a bottle for years... top-off the bottle with a little VG or PG (or PG/VG mix to match the ratio in the bottle), so it is 99.999% full, seal the cap tight, and pop it into your freezer.  What turns juice dark is heat and AIR.  If you top-off the bottles, you prevent oxidation of the ingredients and Nicotine, which will make them last almost indefinitely.  Using the freezer is like putting them into stasis... the extreme cold keeps them from aging.

I have some juices that have been in the freezer for nearly 3 years, and they still look the same color as they did when I bought them.  I sometimes pull one out and vape it, and once it reaches room-temp, it's as good as the day I bought it   Oh, and 30ml or larger bottles that I may not want to vape the whole thing... I just divide into several 10ml bottles (before freezing) and it prevents me from thawing out a big bottle, when I may only want a small bottle...

I store my mixed juices and bulk mixing supplies in my deep-freeze, and things I use most often (for vaping or mixing) in a dorm-size fridge in my office  

[Patricia]

8 hours ago, Christopher said:

That's odd. I've got some VT e-liquid here that's almost 4 years old and other than being a bit cloudy, looks almost the same. It shouldn't turn black... 

Maybe it has something to do with the type of juice I buy. I only buy sweet bakery or cappuccino type juices. I have had a bottle or two that does not get THAT dark. Since it burned up my coils like they did I just through them out. So Chris would you still vape juice that is 4 years old as long as it stays clear and does not turn very dark? Most bottles will tell you when the liquid "was born" but no expiration date. Also, with the fact that the places I buy my favorite juices are going out of business would it be safe to buy as much as I can while I can without any worry of it expiring?

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, Patricia said:

Maybe it has something to do with the type of juice I buy. I only buy sweet bakery or cappuccino type juices. I have had a bottle or two that does not get THAT dark. Since it burned up my coils like they did I just through them out. So Chris would you still vape juice that is 4 years old as long as it stays clear and does not turn very dark? Most bottles will tell you when the liquid "was born" but no expiration date. Also, with the fact that the places I buy my favorite juices are going out of business would it be safe to buy as much as I can while I can without any worry of it expiring?

To be honest I've never tried. Would I vape Vapor Talk e liquids after 4 years? Probably. Thing is, nobody, that I'm aware of, has actually done a study on the shelf life of eliquid. it's a long story but the two year mark was created in vaping's early days as a guideline. If the color had gone off though, I probably wouldn't vape it. (Personally) 

The most important thing when storing e liquid is keeping it away from sunlight. Room temperature is usually adequate. Sunlight however will eventually break down the nicotine content. 

[Patricia]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 0:44 AM, Christopher said:

That's odd. I've got some VT e-liquid here that's almost 4 years old and other than being a bit cloudy, looks almost the same. It shouldn't turn black... 

Hi Chris. I received the 2 bottles of juice I purchased on the going out of business sell because once its gone its gone and its my FAVORITE. But the  Born date of both bottles are 2014. Has no expiration date. I guess I don't have to worry about letting it steep. LOL

 

[Christopher]

31 minutes ago, Patricia said:

Hi Chris. I received the 2 bottles of juice I purchased on the going out of business sell because once its gone its gone and its my FAVORITE. But the  Born date of both bottles are 2014. Has no expiration date. I guess I don't have to worry about letting it steep. LOL

 

lol no I think it's well beyond the steep date. (Though I'm not a huge believer in steeping) I guess it's like anything else, use your judgement, smell it and see what you think. 

On the plus side, as long as I can help it, the forum will continue in well beyond PMTA. We will at least always have Vapor Talk as a source of information in the future. Even if we can't operate in the USA, remember, we have Vapor Talk China too

[spydre]

On 2/6/2017 at 8:04 PM, Christopher said:

8 hours ago, Christopher said:

lol no I think it's well beyond the steep date. (Though I'm not a huge believer in steeping) I guess it's like anything else, use your judgement, smell it and see what you think. 

On the plus side, as long as I can help it, the forum will continue in well beyond PMTA. We will at least always have Vapor Talk as a source of information in the future. Even if we can't operate in the USA, remember, we have Vapor Talk China too

Are you not getting PMTAs on your current line up?

[spydre]

8 hours ago, Christopher said:

lol no I think it's well beyond the steep date. (Though I'm not a huge believer in steeping) I guess it's like anything else, use your judgement, smell it and see what you think. 

On the plus side, as long as I can help it, the forum will continue in well beyond PMTA. We will at least always have Vapor Talk as a source of information in the future. Even if we can't operate in the USA, remember, we have Vapor Talk China too

You have a shop in China?  Or just forums in China?

[Christopher]

We've completed the first steps of PMTA. But it counts for about less than 1% of all that is required. In order to carry only Vapor Talk Black Label (drop all of our classic liquids) and carry only one or two pieces of hardware we own, we're looking at around 5-10 million dollars. The issue is, there is no guarantee the FDA will approve our application and we could be forced to run through the procedure again... (That's the real issue here) That's a lot of responsibility over my head. After going through this one or two times, you can see how the costs could quickly ruin a person. At some point you have to decede if it's worth investing in the US market. (We could do a full blown marketing campaign with some of the best marketing companies in Europe, open a corporate office, take a vacation with Richard Branson and invite all the VIP members on the forum and still have more money left over when you compare the cost to PMTA) 

My heart is here, I want funds in the US economy. But when a government agency requires 5-10 million for your product to be on the market with a "then maybe we'll let you sell but maybe not" as a result... it's a difficult decision to make. We're not by any means big tobacco. Not even close. The margins on products these days are not nearly enough to cover those costs. 

But at least at the moment, we are continuing forward with PMTA. One step at a time. We're working with a couple of consulting firms and once we've settled on one and a group of experts really help us understand the complete direction, I'll have a better idea of where we'll be in two years. That's about all I can say on the matter at the moment

[Christopher]

7 minutes ago, spydre said:

You have a shop in China?  Or just forums in China?

No we have a full blown company in China now. Ironically, there are no Chinese forums just yet. We have a corporate office in Qingdao (50 employees) and a small office in Hong Kong. Black Label is distributed over there along with the Vapor Talk Dallas Pro and a few other hardware products we don't sell in the states. We also have a mod that I hope to see released in the next year or so. It's something I designed years ago and it's great to see it actually become a real physical product. (Though nowhere near ready for sale yet) 

 

[Walt]

Reading this I'm going through the steps of grieving.  I'm somewhere between denial and very angry.  I remember when I was in my teens.  My parents owned a floor covering business and I was working on an install.  I was trying to clean some glue off of a seam and it wasn't working.  I told my dad the new cleaner didn't work.  He told me the guberment had banned carbontetracloride because someone made a bomb with some in it.  I've seen the guberment do this soooo many times in my lifetime.  This is the most egregious to date.  I had abandoned the concept of quitting analogs.  The only endgame I see is ludicrous prohibition activities and another form of conspicuous consumption for the wealthy.   Time to quit writing.  Anger is setting in.  Nothing but a rant could follow. 

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, Walt said:

Reading this I'm going through the steps of grieving.  I'm somewhere between denial and very angry.  I remember when I was in my teens.  My parents owned a floor covering business and I was working on an install.  I was trying to clean some glue off of a seam and it wasn't working.  I told my dad the new cleaner didn't work.  He told me the guberment had banned carbontetracloride because someone made a bomb with some in it.  I've seen the guberment do this soooo many times in my lifetime.  This is the most egregious to date.  I had abandoned the concept of quitting analogs.  The only endgame I see is ludicrous prohibition activities and another form of conspicuous consumption for the wealthy.   Time to quit writing.  Anger is setting in.  Nothing but a rant could follow. 

It really is ridiculous. I think most vape shop owners are ok with some type of regulation that makes sense. Something that benefits the consumer, keeps things safe and ensures everyone stays above board. (Especially with some of the basement mixing that was going on). But we are mixing in an ISO certified clean room, in a multi-million dollar facility. Vapor Talk has always gone above and beyond the call of duty to ensure our customers are informed about our products. Each Black Label product page in the VT store has analysis sheets uploaded. (Certifying they are free of nasties) We are open and honest about what's in our products so that adult consumers can make an educated decision to purchase our products. (Which is more than can be said about a lot of these fly by night liquid "manufactures")

The EU released TPD. It's strict regulation, with stringent rules in place to protect children (drip rate limits, child safety caps etc) and a clear set of guidelines for companies. Most owners agree, the rules are a headache, but they make sense. They have government studies showing e-cigarettes are safer than traditional tobacco (they don't shy away from that) and at a cost that would set us back by about 25,000 grand for our entire line of liquids, I can't help but shake my head. That legislation makes sense. Most current vape companies could handle that kind of regulation. If they're new, a decent business loan would cover the costs and they'd recover quickly. There's also no cutoff and it's ok to introduce new flavors/devices so long as they follow the TPD guidelines. (Which while difficult, is doable by any business) It's just frustrating. 

We've got investors willing to back TPD no problem. They were ok with PMTA until informed that there is no guarantee of passing, even if everything is done by the book. That is what makes absolutely no sense to me. I was talking to a major manufacturing company in the US (They product a good chunk of liquids that are then relabeled for sale) and asked how bad PMTA is going to affect the US market. He said, in his opinion, 95% or greater will likely close their doors if things remain the same. Many online retailers would be limited to selling a few brands that managed to make it through PMTA. But even that makes little sense as most of those PMTA approved companies are going to sell directly on their own websites. Kanger, JoyeTech, Aspire etc are not going to PMTA their entire lines of hardware due to the asinine costs involved. Anyway, I'm ranting. 

Over the coming weeks, most of my meetings/phone calls will revolve around PMTA. I'll keep everyone in the forum in the loop. We will do everything in our power to stay operational in the US.

[Walt]

18 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Over the coming weeks, most of my meetings/phone calls will revolve around PMTA. I'll keep everyone in the forum in the loop. We will do everything in our power to stay operational in the US.

And you are doing a great job of keeping everyone here in the loop.  Per above, you are already providing a save sensible manufacturing environment.  When a person has to provide a photocopy of their driver's license to purchase a dropper bottle from one site because it is vape related while the same bottle on another site requires no proof of anything other than payment, there is a real problem with someone's thought process.