FDA Deeming Regulation - What we know so far

[FXRich]

You still have 2 years to stock up, I think.

I'm not going to buy any coils that I can't rebuild, wire, and cotton will always be available.

[Squid]

1 hour ago, cany said:

I cant afford to stock up on mods ETC this sucks

I am currently 8 months ahead on my truck payments. Planning on skipping one payment to get some diy supplies. $400 should get me enough to last a while I think. I may be a bit premature on pulling the trigger, but it's not like I won't use them.

[cany]

I wanna pickup  few subtank minis

[FXRich]

Right now besides the mods and tanks I'm using I have 2 Kanger 75w TC mods, 4 Subtank Minis, and 2 Subtank Nanos, all still unopened in the box. And a Subvod still unopened, I think I have enough for now.

Going out of state next week but when I come back I will order 1 maybe 2 liters of 100mg Nic base.

[cany]

Im lucky with nic I can use it or not

[Jeffb]

I read today that a large eliquid manufacturer has filed papers suing the FDA regarding this matter. Nicopure Labs LLC

[Christopher]

For those menting 0mg nicotine, that included as well. Essentially, if the FDA can prove you are selling the substance for use in ENDS (electronic nicotine delivery systems) you will become liable. I'm not saying it won't impossible, it's just that for the masses, this is unlikely. It's also a great risk to the vendor selling the supplies whether or not they want to risk the fine/felony for skirting around the law.

Additionally the regulation does just include different flavors and strengths but also formulations. So, if you have one flavors available in 0mg, 6mg, 12mg and it comes in say three PG/VG ratios then your looking at 9 applications. 

[Bebop]

Okay.  Here's a wild question. (sorry if it's been addressed.  I've been busy and haven't read everything yet.)

 

If the FDA drops the hammer on vaping (and it is dropping)  how does that affect VaporTalk and other sites where people will continue to talk vaping, share resources etc?  How doesthis affect on line activity? How do they stop the juggernaught that IS vaping?  

I still can't fathom how this all fits. How will it be policed? Who's going to set fines and penalties.  This can't happen overnight and won't go down without serious opposition. 

[FXRich]

It will take awhile I agree. Most of the vape hardware comes from China, Customs can stop a lot of that, but not all of it. And a lot can happen in 2 years, Its not up to local law enforcement to enforce Federal law, so much of it won't be enforced. Local cops probably will put it on the bottom of their priority list, and the feds don't have the manpower to search out every mom and pop operation, they have better things to do too I hope. I think the new FDA rules might not be enforced except at the border, and we all know how well the border is protected. To make things short I don't think much will change at all, besides Congress will have to fund the new vape police, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

I looked it up, The FDA currently has 180 agents for enforcing FDA regulations.

Edited May 11, 2016 by FXRich

[Christopher]

2 hours ago, Bebop said:

Okay.  Here's a wild question. (sorry if it's been addressed.  I've been busy and haven't read everything yet.)

 

If the FDA drops the hammer on vaping (and it is dropping)  how does that affect VaporTalk and other sites where people will continue to talk vaping, share resources etc?  How doesthis affect on line activity? How do they stop the juggernaught that IS vaping?  

I still can't fathom how this all fits. How will it be policed? Who's going to set fines and penalties.  This can't happen overnight and won't go down without serious opposition. 

The FDA mentioned it will have a "task force" set in place to enforce these regulations. But more important is that states now have the right (again we're still going through all of this documentation) to not only enforce currently regulations but to enforce their own regulations.  

You mentioned how will this affect Vapor Talk and it's community and I can say that we will not, within the law, stifle or suppress conversation. The greatest right we have in this country is the right to free speech. Though most are unaware on the forum, we've had many cease and desist orders. One of them was actually from a well known candy company. (They asked us to remove three topics or face a lawsuit) my reply letter which is certified is actually up in my office with the rest. My response in legal jargon basically said "kiss my ***." (We were in the right) additionally we'd not only counter sue financially but would add a rider requesting partial payment in candy. (It's actually a pretty hilarious go between) This was before I sold Vapor Talk to The Whitney Group. 

Now to answer you questions about Vapor Talk. There are many big changes coming for VT as a company. (Many of you might have noted I've been absent for a couple of years outside of website maintenance) After a generous offer, I recently took back a large controlling stock in the company and am now sitting on the board. Additionally we're signing a multimillion dollar venture to push Vapor Talk globally (Two sister companies are opening in Asia and Europe) Furthermore we're releasing US created and mixed e-liquids 6 weeks from now +-. (That's about all I can mention before the PR release. The lawyers get antsy when I post. I was lovingly told not to be like the T Mobile CEO. I took that as a compliment) While many companies have gone up the popular chain and back down, we've been quietly working behind the scenes.  It's taken a year of painstaking work after watching Vapor Talk struggle after leaving, but I can assure you -  It feels like old times again with the regulation, we've been expecting this for quite time. 

I might not be this most filtered board member a company has ever brought back but let's be honest, the United States wasn't founded on following the rules. As someone who was British born, I like to think I'm keeping the tradition going. I hope and feel most vapers are on board. Vaping has always been the wild west industry and while we support proper, reasonable regulation, this recent release is total corporate backed horse****. Vapor Talk is your platform for communication on this and we're not going to sit back while the FDA pushes vapers back to traditional tobacco. 

 

[Bebop]

Chris, you're a bad***.  . I love it.

In the coming zombie apocalypse, I want you in my group. Or maybe I should say "can I be in your group?" Haha.  

 

 

[Earthling789]

6 hours ago, FXRich said:

I looked it up, The FDA currently has 180 agents for enforcing FDA regulations.

 

5 hours ago, Christopher said:

The FDA mentioned it will have a "task force" set in place to enforce these regulations. But more important is that states now have the right (again we're still going through all of this documentation) to not only enforce currently regulations but to enforce their own regulations.  

With vaping being determined a "Tobacco Product" by executive fiat... my best guess is that legal enforcement will now fall under the BATF, because the FDA has no law-enforcement authority... only the ability to set regulations and approve/deny products/drugs for consumption/use.  Either that, or our ever-expanding government will just create a new department in parallel to BATF which will have the sole jurisdiction of "Vaping Police"?  At this time, nobody knows, but my guess is they will hire another 1000 BATF agents to deal with "evil vaping"....

[aufin]

"No free samples"  This includes in-store tasters/testers?  Guess it depends on how it's interpreted. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by aufin

[FXRich]

I will have to check and see what the laws are in Canada, I travel to the Seattle area a couple of times a year, and Vancouver BC isn't that far from there. I have crossed the border many times in the past, it is more difficult to cross from the US into Canada than it is to return IMO. Are they going to add vape sniffing dogs at the checkpoints?

[Earthling789]

1 hour ago, aufin said:

"No free samples"  This includes in-store tasters/testers?  Guess it depends on how it's interpreted. 

Yeah, that one is not clear, but that's the beauty of "vague regulations"... they can enforce what they want.

For the most part, "free samples" would exclude a vendor from adding in a free sample of their newest flavor, or like when the online stores add in a free 30ml bottle of juice to your order of tanks/mods/coils if you spend $x.xx on the order.  I think by stopping free samples, this is in anticipation of applying sin-taxes to e-liquids.  They can't collect exorbitant taxes on things that are FREE.

I don't think they would specifically clamp down on taste-testing... if they did, Baskin Robbins would have to stop giving taste samples of ice-cream

Edited May 11, 2016 by Earthling789

[BirdDog]

I don't think they will be able to stifle the online conversations and sharing of information from forums, youtube and live broadcasts, even if the word ecig or vaping is included. I did hear that websites with juice calculators and coil building calculators might have to come down, but the apps or software won't be affected. This confused me. The only thing I could think of was some of those sites ask for donations and apps can be for free. I think as long as there is no exchange of money they can't do anything about it.

When it comes to the internet, you can find all kinds of discussions going on about any topic. Some of those topics are against federal law.

[FXRich]

As I see it the new Regulations only apply to sales, and not possession, we can have pretty much any vape gear, and juice that we want, we just can't buy or sell it. Did anyone notice if the herbal atomizers were also included in the regulations? or are they already illegal since they deliver something that is still illegal under federal law.

[Christopher]

13 minutes ago, FXRich said:

As I see it the new Regulations only apply to sales, and not possession, we can have pretty much any vape gear, and juice that we want, we just can't buy or sell it. Did anyone notice if the herbal atomizers were also included in the regulations? or are they already illegal since they deliver something that is still illegal under federal law.

That's correct. There is nothing wrong with owning devices that you have or may purchase in the future. This pretty much applies to vendors and retailers. Though the states can now in theory create a law affecting customers too if they so desired. I suspect though that a "sin tax" would probably be applied in favor of a law. But then again after this last release of regulations, nothing really surprises me anymore. 

As to the comment above about bringing it in through the border, no different than when we ship through customs, you could still potentially have your merchandise confiscated. Thing is, if that was possible, suppliers would just pay someone to bring the gear into the country. 

Like Angela mentioned, it's just vague enough in some places to make it really confusing. The free samples are a good example, I think what they're trying to prevent is retailers from handing out nicotine contained products. When I was in Vegas for example, I recall a night club/bar handing out free disposables. This was quite a while ago but you're basically giving out products that are potentially addictive. So at least from this standpoint I get it. But when an adult smoker or existing vaper who's already made the decision to vape using nicotine enters an adult store requesting to try a new flavor, I really don't see what the problem is. If ID has been checked it should be fair game. But it doesn't state what  "free sample" means. For example tasting stations found in vape stores don't really "give" you anything, instead you try a flavor on a pre filled tank with a protected mouthpiece usually. That's then handed back to the store owner/tasting station. So really, these regulations are pretty confusing. 

Finally and what I really don't understand is this: The FDA Is supposed to provide guidelines to ensure manufactures are producing a safer product. Who wouldn't want that? But these latest regulations, for example checking ID and not handing out free samples sound to me more like laws. The FDA should and does not have the power to create law. So many questions and not a lot of answers yet. 

[Tam]

8 hours ago, Earthling789 said:

With vaping being determined a "Tobacco Product" by executive fiat... my best guess is that legal enforcement will now fall under the BATF, because the FDA has no law-enforcement authority... only the ability to set regulations and approve/deny products/drugs for consumption/use.  Either that, or our ever-expanding government will just create a new department in parallel to BATF which will have the sole jurisdiction of "Vaping Police"?  At this time, nobody knows, but my guess is they will hire another 1000 BATF agents to deal with "evil vaping"....

...yeah, our tax dollars hard at work. 

[FXRich]

That rule about no more replaceable batteries is probably aimed at the people that misuse mech mods and blow themselves up, just a guess by me.

[iQuit]

1 hour ago, FXRich said:

That rule about no more replaceable batteries is probably aimed at the people that misuse mech mods and blow themselves up, just a guess by me.

That, and my guess would be to favor close-end systems like cigalikes.

Question, if for some reason the grandfather date gets moved to 2016 or some arbitrary date later than 2007, that still only pertains to atomizers holding no more than 2 ml, and mods with non-replaceable cells, right?

[FXRich]

Something tells me they aren't done with the rule changing yet, I believe our only hope is Congress or the courts, and I don't see congress acting on it until after the election, and most of the time these things take years in the courts. We have to have some patience, and wait to see what happens. 

[Robinox]

Should vapers start stocking up on products and juices or is there time? I know that there's two years to file paperwork but does that mean that the vape shops will be able to stay open for two years even if they don't plan to file? Will vape shops be out of business in August do you guys think?

[FXRich]

The only thing that changes after 90 days is the labeling, otherwise you got 2 years to figure out if you are going to quit vaping or not. Personally I believe if you are going to continue to vape after 2 years you should learn to mix your own juice. After 2 years the companies that invest the money to legally sell ejuice will have to raise the price to recover their cost. I have been mixing my own juice for 2 years now so I'm going to be OK.

[Christopher]

While I think your more advanced vapers will probably be fine in terms of getting most of the supplies they need, it's also about how we're going to pass this forward. There there are still so many people who smoke cigarettes and most aren't going to jump through hoops like we would to get the gear the need. 

It would be nice to ensure the industry as a whole is protected. Although the start of vaping has been unrestricted (and sure we've had a few bumps in the road) the most fascinating thing for me to watch since 2007, is how quickly innovation took over. With no rules in place and a little self regulation, the devices we have now our light years away from the early days. It really goes to show when people are left with enough room to breath, just how quickly and creatively things move forward.