FDA REGULATIONS! VERY IMPORTANT!

[jasonculp]

I have a liter of 50/50, and just ordered a liter of 100% PG... this could have been a mistake, as I haven't put it in a calculator.  I really don't mind PG though, so if I end up with a 50/50  or even a 60PG/40VG blend I will be ok with that.

[FXRich]

That depends on the nic level, and flavor added. I currently use 4mg, and would still have to add PG to get my 30PG/70VG ratio. Even at 10mg if I use 20% flavor, I could still get my 30/70 mix.

[bcartervol98]

Are we at that point where I should order a crap ton of liquid and a dozen ISticks? I have read about every interpretation of this law, possible outcomes, stalling through class action suits etc... I do not ever see myself doing DIY. Does anyone really think we will be unable to purchase hardware, coils and liquid 90 days from now? The way I read it companies would have 2 years to submit their products to the FDA and there is always a chance a federal court can override the deeming of e-cigs as "tobacco products".

Just trying to figure out what "DefCon" level to move to. If it is all going to go away I guess maybe I should order a bunch of liquid in different decreasing nic levels and start the process of stepping down to 0 and just quitting vaping.

[Squid]

I have been pondering the same. I have a couple hundred dollars of stuff in a cart on RTSvapes waiting for more info on when the hammer will drop.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Squid

[FXRich]

The FDA falls under the executive branch of government, so the regulations will be determined by whomever the President nominates to head it. Congress can override any regulation the FDA puts in place, but for some reason I don't see that happening. I have a pretty good unopened hardware supply right now, and see no reason to expand it at this time. I do intend to order more Nic base though. I guess I'm saying I'm going to wait and see what happens. They may decide to limit the watt output of mods or maybe the voltage, if they do that I will order a couple of 200w mods.

I may also stock up on flavors, they should keep in the freezer for a long time.

Edited May 6, 2016 by FXRich

[Bebop]

I am of similar thought - I don't see this happening in 90 days.  There will be serious challenges to this. A lot of people will lose out in a big way and a lot more in a small way. 

It is really tough getting an idea of where it goes from here. A lot is going to happen in the next couple of weeks.  This Feb 2007 rules wipes out nearly all significant progress in vaping. 

I'm going to sit tight for the moment except for supporting CASAA in anyy way...

 

If the vape community panics then it could be tough getting supplies.  Except for juice I have everything I need for the next year or so...

Edited May 6, 2016 by Bebop

[bcartervol98]

13 minutes ago, Bebop said:

I am of similar thought - I don't see this happening in 90 days.  There will be serious challenges to this. A lot of people will lose out in a big way and a lot more in a small way. 

It is really tough getting an idea of where it goes from here. A lot is going to happen in the next couple of weeks.  This Feb 2007 rules wipes out nearly all significant progress in vaping. 

I'm going to sit tight for the moment except for supporting CASAA in anyy way...

 

If the vape community panics then it could be tough getting supplies.  Except for juice I have everything I need for the next year or so...

Yea Im the same. I have enough IStick 50w and Vision Spinner 2s, 1s and other assorted hardware to last a long time, as long as they last which is really anyone's guess. Cant be jumping in the lake with anymore ona  lanyard lol. My wife and I are set up on liquid for probably 90 days. I do not think I am going to panic or anything, go out and buy anything extra at this point and just see what unfolds over the next couple weeks.

[crush02342002]

Hey all, been a while. I got the email from vt about all this, I clicked the link and fell asleep after 5 min of reading. I think they do that crap on purpose, adding a lot of unneeded jargon until your sense of give a crap wanes. I take it as a personal challeng though, tonight I plan on trying to digest the fda's crap sandwich we are being fed or fall asleep. Either way it's a win, havnt been sleeping well lately.

[Earthling789]

2 hours ago, bcartervol98 said:

Just trying to figure out what "DefCon" level to move to.

I think at this moment, I'd call it DefCon 3... It looks bad, and while it won't go crashing down around us tomorrow, "something" will happen as early as November.  I've read through the first 200+ pages, and if they get this passed/implemented as expected, the first wave of pulling things off the shelves could/should occur in November this year!  Yes, there may be injunctions, and there is still a House Bill which, if passed, will grandfather everything already on the market through August of this year... lets HOPE that passes, which overrides the FDA overreach!!  Otherwise, there will be a lot of "going out of business" fire-sales in October/November to unload stock, and there may not be much to pick from by then if retailers begin to reduce inventory in anticipation of regulatory action?

In the meantime, I plan to pick up those TC Mods, and other hardware, I've been holding off purchasing, as well as a couple more Subtank Minis, a case of extra coils, and sometime between now and DefCon 5 (November), I'll stock up on my Nicotine base... enough to keep me in juice for the next decade

I do hope the grandfather date can be changed, so the market is not stripped of existing, reliable, helpful products, but I see the FDA (backed by Big Tobacco $$ and Lobby pressure towards Congress) to really buck hard against moving the date.  2007 will put Big Tobacco as the only player in the game, and the FDA will be under zero obligation (based on the Deeming) to approve ANY product for market, which will ensure market monopoly by Big Tobacco!

The FDA should be disbanded... as well as a few other "alphabet agencies"... their regulatory power is as bad as the EPA, whereas they can make arbitrary mandates which pick winners and losers in the free market, generate taxation without representation (illegal), and apply fines to punish those that aren't paying their dues (Lobby money) to ensure favoritism/protection... can we say "government organized crime syndicate"?

Edited May 6, 2016 by Earthling789

[Squid]

Everything in my cart is for DIY juice, I figure it will last a couple years (I have an extra 19 cuft freezer). I have RBA decks for the subtank, and ordered one for my Starre tank last week. Batts shouldn't be a problem as I use 18650s in my flashlight for work. I have access to stainless wire through work, I am checking on it's composition. I haven't had a cigarette since March of '09, but just can't seem to totally get off the nic. I have cut from 24mg juice to 12mg in my nautilus mini, and less in my sub-ohm tanks. I do not want to go back to tobacco. Like I said it's all sitting in my cart for a bit, but if it looks like they are going to make current hardware and juices unobtainable I will place the order in the next few weeks, plus some hardware to sit until I need it.

[FXRich]

I find this to be interesting, I think it means 0 nic juice has to be labeled contains tobacco even though it doesn't have any tobacco in it.

Nicotine Warning Statement

The product packages and advertisements of all newly-regulated covered tobacco products must bear the following warning statement:

 

“WARNING: This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.”

 

If the tobacco product manufacturer submits a self-certification statement to FDA that the newly-regulated tobacco product does not contain nicotine (and that the manufacturer has data to support this assertion), then an alternate statement must be used on product packages and advertisements:

 

“This product is made from tobacco.”

 

You can find more information about nicotine warning statements in Deeming Tobacco Products To Be Subject to the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.

 

[Earthling789]

19 minutes ago, FXRich said:

If the tobacco product manufacturer submits a self-certification statement to FDA that the newly-regulated tobacco product does not contain nicotine (and that the manufacturer has data to support this assertion), then an alternate statement must be used on product packages and advertisements:

 

“This product is made from tobacco.”

The purpose of this label is to classify the product (juice) as a tobacco product so the Federal Government can list the sale of each 15ml bottle of e-liquid as a pack of cigarettes (equivalent) so they can force the tobacco companies to pay more $$ to each state, based on sales, to comply with the Tobacco Settlement Act.

All of the Nicotine I use is produced chemically, not derived from tobacco plants... which by their own classification system should exempt it from any of these regulations; however, by broad classification of Nicotine as a "product of Tobacco", they ensure being able to equate any Nicotine containing product to smoking/chewing/snuff tobacco.  Also, the Deeming classifies ALL e-cig equipment (which is combined in part or whole to produce vapor of a liquid for inhalation) to be classified as a "Tobacco Product"... therefore, yes, any e-liquid used in an APV by definition is a "Tobacco Product".  They would classify matches, lighters, and ashtrays as "tobacco products" if they thought for a moment they could get away with it....

This is all this is... regulation to reclassify a product as tobacco to ensure the government continues to receive billions of dollars from Big Tobacco.  Ensuring the 2007 grandfather date guarantees Big Tobacco as the only player in the game (profits) so they can PAY those settlement checks!!  One hand washes the other... as usual in our Big Brother Government

Edited May 7, 2016 by Earthling789

[FXRich]

And I thought the Constitution gave the sole authority to Congress to levy taxes, and only to Congress.

[Earthling789]

10 minutes ago, FXRich said:

And I thought the Constitution gave the sole authority to Congress to levy taxes, and only to Congress.

Congress has the sole authority, but they do nothing to stop these Executive Regulatory Agencies, like the EPA, FDA, etc. because they generate revenue by reclassification of products/services into different tax codes, and the fines levied by these agencies go straight to the government...

Yes, it is immoral and unjust, but "legal" if Congress allows it to happen.  This is why the whole of America is upset with our government... they have become a corrupt bunch of "ruling class", only worried about the revenue they can generate off the backs of we peasants/serfs...

[FXRich]

That is why there is no sales tax in Oregon, any time the state wants to impose a Tax or raise an existing tax it has to be in the form of a ballot measure, and that has to be voted on by the people. One of the few things good about the Oregon government. A lot of federal agencies get away with it because they call it a fine or a penalty. I haven't read the entire FDA regulations, but I did see the words fine and penalty a few times, but nothing about taxes yet. That will probably come when the ATF gets involved.

[Earthling789]

ATF, IRS, Santa Claus, and of course State and Local government's ability to levy additional taxation under wide jurisdiction of "sin-tax" laws, now that the Fed has classified vaping as the same as smoking...  I expect all vaping equipment and supplies to be taxed like cigarettes... 200% minimum.  I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure all bottles of e-liquid will also require a Federal Tax Stamp (just like cigarette packs).

In 1985, my cousin worked the books for a Lorillard factory... she said there was a whopping $0.37 in every pack... and the gov't was the real profiteers in the sale of those packs... reaping 400% locally since packs were just under $2 each.  Places like NYC... 1200% markup just in TAXES!

I've said it before... the government is addicted to our tax dollars far more than they care about the health of their constituents.  They told us to quit smoking, so we did, using means they did not control (patches/gum/inhalers/drugs); therefore they felt the pinch in their pockets and panicked... Thus the need to regulate our new-found-savior (vaping) so they could continue to reap huge taxes, which they are NOT getting from tobacco.  Now they will double-dip... regulation/taxes on the products (at higher than board sales-tax) AND by classification as "tobacco products" they get to stick Big Tobacco with the bills to honor their Tobacco Settlement Agreement, based on every vape-pen, cigalike, and bottle of e-liquid sold.

Can you tell I'm mad as wet hornet over this??

[FXRich]

Does that mean I need to get tax stamps for my DIY juice, Its been cold lately, but I don't think hell froze over yet.

I don't think most people know it but Government makes more money from gas than the oil companies.

Edited May 7, 2016 by FXRich

[Earthling789]

I haven't read about tax stamps yet... yet... but all commercial e-liquid manufacturers will be required to register and certify every juice they make, and yes that includes SIX different certifications for blueberry in 0mg, 3mg, 6mg, 12mg, 18mg, and 24mg.... and that is just for 50/50 PG/VG combo... add another SIX registrations/certifications for 40/60... another SIX for 20/80... you see where this is going?

DIY is not classified as commercial sales, but if you have a small lab and sell to the public (like Compenstine) or mix in-house like many of the mom-and-pop B&M's... you'd be required to spend tens of thousands of dollars to certify and register your juices with the FDA.  Those who "mix to order" will no longer be able to because they'd have to register/certify every combo from max PG to max VG and everything in between, and every possible flavor combo they could provide.  Oh, and if they change their formula to a different flavor % or different flavor supplier, the mixture must be re-registered/certified as a NEW product....

I expect base Nicotine to be regulated and only available to those with a license, but that won't probably happen for several years, maybe even decades down the road?

[Jeffb]

I need my Jiffy Java Nut!!!!!! I hope my supplier will be willing to get me some juice on the down low.

 

[FXRich]

Plain brown paper bag from the bootlegger, There will be a lot of that. So I won't be able to sell to friends, but I could give it away to people that contribute to my favorite charity. ME

[Earthling789]

That's me... I don't charge my family when I mix juices for them, but I've never complained if they left a few bucks on my coffee table when they leave... It's always nice when they contribute to the cause and help me pay for the supplies...   Bottles, PG, VG, Nicotine, and flavors aren't free, and I appreciate that they realize that...

Although, I could easily see myself start offering $30 "consultation fees with free bottle of juice" if commercial juices start costing $50-75 when all the new taxes hit

[cany]

11 hours ago, Jeffb said:

I need my Jiffy Java Nut!!!!!! I hope my supplier will be willing to get me some juice on the down low.

 

Hes gonna deliver it in a cement truck

[Compenstine]

This is why I started pushing DIY.

[BirdDog]

I have been listening and reading all kinds of information about the FDA Deeming Regulations. We have known since the beginning that regulation was going to happen, we just didn't know when. T he FDA regulation was set up to protect the consumer, not to harm you. The rules are meant for the suppliers and manufactures.

The first thing I am going to tell you is NOT TO PANIC! The vaping world is not ending in 90 days. But I do suggest that you start planning on how you are going to handle what will be happening in the next 3 years.

Some of the changes you will see in 90 days will be no free samples, contests or giveaways. Shops will not be able to have juice bars or be able to make coils for customers. Eliquid labeling will be changing and no new products will be released. Basically, the industry is going to become stagnant. What you see now is what we will have. You will see some vendors and shops close.

It is your duty as a consumer to support your suppliers that are heavily involved in advocacy. Writing or calling your Senators or Representatives will do nothing right now. Feel free to contact them if you must, I don't thing it will hurt. You need to keep an eye on CASAA and SFATA. They will tell you when, how and where to act. These groups are pouring through the information and deciding on what action we need to take.

 

[FXRich]

What I can see happening is the new regulations might cause a run on vape products, which may cause a shortage, and prices to rise. Might not happen though, have to wait and see.