Safety and newer electronic mods

[jasonculp]

We were discussing new electronic mods in a thread below specifically the ipv4.  I was following another conversation on another site the other day about the specific mod I am using the ipv D2.  They were discussing the use of a 20 amp battery in this mod.  The specifications are .2 ohms to 3 ohms in power mode, and .05 ohm to .3 ohm in temp mode. It goes from 7 - 75 watts in power mode and 10 joules to 50 joules in temp mode.  I understand what the joule measurement is, but it makes very little sense to me in this application.  I know watts.  If I am looking at this correctly the mod can use a .05 ohm coil with a max output of 25 amps which would give you 31 watts. 

I have been scared that the mod might draw more from the battery than it could supply, making it dangerous.  Today I swapped batteries with a fresh one.  It wouldn't work.  I pushed the button and either nothing would happen, or the screen would say CHECK BATTERY i just assumed my mod had fallen victim to bad QC or somthing.  I was really getting discouraged.  I went back to my office, pulled the battery, swapped it....same thing.  I was about to give up, when it hit me....turn it down.  I turned it from 30 joules to 10 and it worked.  Since I don't know how to calculate joules into ohms law I just went with battery voltage.  It could have been as much as 19 amps. (.22ohms and 4.2volts) I have a 20amp battery in it. I am really curious to know if this is what is happening.  I do not have the tools to measure the output.

Any ideas?

[Squid]

link  If I am reading corretly, joules= watts. Don't know why all my text is part of the link.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[eLCruz]

We were discussing new electronic mods in a thread below specifically the ipv4.  I was following another conversation on another site the other day about the specific mod I am using the ipv D2.  They were discussing the use of a 20 amp battery in this mod.  The specifications are .2 ohms to 3 ohms in power mode, and .05 ohm to .3 ohm in temp mode. It goes from 7 - 75 watts in power mode and 10 joules to 50 joules in temp mode.  I understand what the joule measurement is, but it makes very little sense to me in this application.  I know watts.  If I am looking at this correctly the mod can use a .05 ohm coil with a max output of 25 amps which would give you 31 watts. 

I have been scared that the mod might draw more from the battery than it could supply, making it dangerous.  Today I swapped batteries with a fresh one.  It wouldn't work.  I pushed the button and either nothing would happen, or the screen would say CHECK BATTERY i just assumed my mod had fallen victim to bad QC or somthing.  I was really getting discouraged.  I went back to my office, pulled the battery, swapped it....same thing.  I was about to give up, when it hit me....turn it down.  I turned it from 30 joules to 10 and it worked.  Since I don't know how to calculate joules into ohms law I just went with battery voltage.  It could have been as much as 19 amps. (.22ohms and 4.2volts) I have a 20amp battery in it. I am really curious to know if this is what is happening.  I do not have the tools to measure the output.

Any ideas?

Why not just get a 35 amp efset, the purple one. Better to have an overly capable battery than wonder when its gonna fail.

[iQuit]

I am not sure if it related or not. 

I have had the "CHECK BAT" on the D2 but only on TC mode, and only when active resistance go above the high .3 range (above 0.35). My initial res was locked at 0.18, and active res rises as I vape. I was chain vaping and ignored when I was hitting 0.3 range. I just let my tank cool off a bit and back to normal. It happened to me a few times.

That is the only instance where I have seen "check bat" error

 

As for Efest 35A cells....

danger_efest_18650_battery_venting_at_14amp_

[jasonculp]

link  If I am reading corretly, joules= watts. Don't know why all my text is part of the link.

You are kinda correct Watts are Joules per second.  That is why I don't understand why they use it for measuring power.

 

 

I have 4 of them in rotation.  So far they have not proven to me to be any more safe than a 25R or VTC4.  So far the Efests are the only battery I have had fail on me.  The first quit taking a charge, the other vented in a mech with a stuck button (totally my fault and kinda on purpose...alcohol might have been involved).  I am not convinced of the advertised amp ratings, of course this is just my opinion and I have noting but anecdotal evidence to back it up.

I also keep 8 25rs, the 4 (35A) Efests, and 4 vtc4s charged, so I don't have to charge except on the weekend

I am sorry if i didn't word my post correctly.  I was mostly curious about the mod itself.  If it could somehow tell if my battery was capable of providing enough amps for the given settings.

I am not sure if it related or not. 

I have had the "CHECK BAT" on the D2 but only on TC mode, and only when active resistance go above the high .3 range (above 0.35). My initial res was locked at 0.18, and active res rises as I vape. I was chain vaping and ignored when I was hitting 0.3 range. I just let my tank cool off a bit and back to normal. It happened to me a few times.

That is the only instance where I have seen "check bat" error

 

This makes sense!  I was outside on the cell phone, chain vaping and it was close to 100 degrees.  I am using the Herakles .2ohm nickel coils it was locked at .22 ohms.  When I chain vape, there is times it hits .54 ohms and it takes a while to cool off.  The .3 ohm upper limit makes it easy to blow through.

Dang I hate this new update!

Edited August 11, 2015 by jasonculp
Stupid update...

[iQuit]

At first, I thought it was my cell too because I was on my last bar indicator the first it happened, but the last 2 instances I just put in fresh cells. I am still on the lookout for check bat issues to rule out my initial observation, as I could be very well be wrong.

On IPV4, I know I can vape even higher than .6 when I was curious and manually check my res out of curiosity.

[jasonculp]

At first, I thought it was my cell too because I was on my last bar indicator the first it happened, but the last 2 instances I just put in fresh cells. I am still on the lookout for check bat issues to rule out my initial observation, as I could be very well be wrong.

On IPV4, I know I can vape even higher than .6 when I was curious and manually check my res out of curiosity.

I am assuming you are running a higher temp than I am.  I am only running 475.  If I push it up to 550 the resistance goes up.

[iQuit]

I was running same temp but 50J, and taking 8s drags.

[Bebop]

I am not sure if it related or not. 

I have had the "CHECK BAT" on the D2 but only on TC mode, and only when active resistance go above the high .3 range (above 0.35). My initial res was locked at 0.18, and active res rises as I vape. I was chain vaping and ignored when I was hitting 0.3 range. I just let my tank cool off a bit and back to normal. It happened to me a few times.

That is the only instance where I have seen "check bat" error

 

As for Efest 35A cells....

danger_efest_18650_battery_venting_at_14amp_

I have 2 of that exact battery. 

this is oNe report of one incident.  Im going to replace tHem anyway. Not worththe rIsk.

the editor iS giing me terterrIfic grigrief right now. Im gOing to stop pOsting on my phone tIl. Figure tHis ooUt. SpeSpending more tIme corrcorreCting my pOpOsTs

lol

[iQuit]

^^

You are absolutely correct. That link only showed one instance and it could be attributed to a bad batch, improper storage prior to OP receiving it, or even fake. But Efest from the past have been over optimistic with their labeling. 

Personally, I treat all cells as 20A CDR (less than 65W and no lower than .3 ohm on single cell mods),unless I am positive that I have genuine VTC4 on hand which AFAIK are the only true 30A CDR cells around. But I suppose I am overly cautious.

[jasonculp]

^^

You are absolutely correct. That link only showed one instance and it could be attributed to a bad batch, improper storage prior to OP receiving it, or even fake. But Efest from the past have been over optimistic with their labeling. 

Personally, I treat all cells as 20A CDR (less than 65W and no lower than .3 ohm on single cell mods),unless I am positive that I have genuine VTC4 on hand which AFAIK are the only true 30A CDR cells around. But I suppose I am overly cautious.

I agree.  I think that is one thing I have against the new D2.  Joules.  I don't have a clue how safe my mod is at 30J.  Honestly I know it is fine, because my batteries never even get warm.  I guess if @Squid is correct, (I have heard many other people say that too) and 1J on the readout equals 1 watt.  I am way under limits. Even if 50J (max) = 50 watts, I am still well under 20A. 

 

I am like y'all on the batteries, no need to take unnecessary risks!  I now only buy them from battery people, not vape places.  I have been burned a few times with rewraps.

I really want to try some LG 18650HG2 3000mAh. I have not seen any tests on it yet, but 20 amp continuous, and 3000 mAh sounds good!

[Bebop]

I just bought 2 of the LGs. Should have them in a day or two. 

My efests seem fine.  I really inspected them. They never get hot. But i never push them either. 

Better safe than sorry. For $20? Its a no brainer. 

[Adversarious1]

I agree.  I think that is one thing I have against the new D2.  Joules.  I don't have a clue how safe my mod is at 30J.  Honestly I know it is fine, because my batteries never even get warm.  I guess if @Squid is correct, (I have heard many other people say that too) and 1J on the readout equals 1 watt.  I am way under limits. Even if 50J (max) = 50 watts, I am still well under 20A. 

 

I am like y'all on the batteries, no need to take unnecessary risks!  I now only buy them from battery people, not vape places.  I have been burned a few times with rewraps.

I really want to try some LG 18650HG2 3000mAh. I have not seen any tests on it yet, but 20 amp continuous, and 3000 mAh sounds good!

This is my second attempt at posting this.  I don't know what happened to the first one.  I hit "submit reply" and it disappeared into Never-never land.  If it suddenly appears, then I apologize for what is essentially a double post.

Not to muddy the waters even more, but joules are not necessarily equal to watts.  They are related, but they are two different things.  Assuming joules = watts would be close to assuming crude oil = gasoline.  A joule is a unit of energy while a watt is a unit of power.  The number of watts can be calculated from joules (and vice versa) but in order to do so, you also need to factor in time.  In order to calculate the number of watts (power) from joules (energy), you would divide the joules by time (seconds), or P = E/T.  In the case of 50J = 50W, that would be correct if the time is only 1 second.  If the time were, say, 5 seconds, then a total of 10 watts of power would be produced.  

It is a lot more complicated than that.  Honestly I am baffled at why the chip manufacturers and firmware programmers decided to factor in joules on TC devices.  TC could still be achieved by allowing the user to select a watt limit in TC mode (while having a maximum built in watt limit).

In the coming weeks I will dig out some of my old text books and see if I can put together a tutorial that will make sense.  Most of the tutorials I have seen would tend to leave the average person with little to no knowledge even more confused than before they started.  

Of course, a lot of that confusion could have been avoided if the chip makers had only consulted me before they decided to throw joules into the mix.

[Squid]

It may be easier/faster to write the code for temp control using Joules?

IMO, the best way to give us the control is a generic scale with no labels. Kind of like they do with the volume on TVs and radios. Imagine the confusion if they set that up with the decibel scale. The only plus side is that with a labeled scale you can compare device to device. It's easy with volume, if it hurts it's too loud.

And back to the original topic. With Ohm's Law is it possible that the chip is calculating battery voltage and coil resistance, and deciding that the batts will be drawing over a preset amp value, giving the warning? For example, I have read that the VTR is internally limited to 5 watts? (may or may not be true, just read it somewhere.)I haven't put any numbers into the formula to check, just a thought.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Squid
I'm a non-proofreading bone head

[jasonculp]

This is my second attempt at posting this.  I don't know what happened to the first one.  I hit "submit reply" and it disappeared into Never-never land.  If it suddenly appears, then I apologize for what is essentially a double post.

I have never seen such a wonky upgrade.  This thing has given a lot of trouble!

Not to muddy the waters even more, but joules are not necessarily equal to watts.  They are related, but they are two different things.  Assuming joules = watts would be close to assuming crude oil = gasoline.  A joule is a unit of energy while a watt is a unit of power.  The number of watts can be calculated from joules (and vice versa) but in order to do so, you also need to factor in time.  In order to calculate the number of watts (power) from joules (energy), you would divide the joules by time (seconds), or P = E/T.  In the case of 50J = 50W, that would be correct if the time is only 1 second.  If the time were, say, 5 seconds, then a total of 10 watts of power would be produced.  

It is a lot more complicated than that.  Honestly I am baffled at why the chip manufacturers and firmware programmers decided to factor in joules on TC devices.  TC could still be achieved by allowing the user to select a watt limit in TC mode (while having a maximum built in watt limit).

In the coming weeks I will dig out some of my old text books and see if I can put together a tutorial that will make sense.  Most of the tutorials I have seen would tend to leave the average person with little to no knowledge even more confused than before they started.  

Of course, a lot of that confusion could have been avoided if the chip makers had only consulted me before they decided to throw joules into the mix.

I am sorry, I didn't mean to leave the impression that I didn't understand what joules are.  I am such a nerd.  That is my source of confusion.  A joule is not an unit of power.  I have read that P4Y has tried to use them interchangeably, which they are not. I agree there is probably 3 or 4 of us on the entire board that would be interested in the difference in watts and joules.  You should have seen the treads discussing RMS vs Mean, or PMW and DC/DC stepdown...lol

I think that is overall what worries me about the ipvD2.  I think with it's limits set so low on the ohms, and high on the watts, a newish vapor will could easily put a battery in it that is underpowered unless it has other safety features built in. (which it may)

If, for sake of argument, YiHi is saying that joules are the same as watts, and you use ohm's law to calculate it. .05 ohms and 50 watts would equal 31+ amps without calculating the 5-10% efficiency of the board.  It does have a input limit of 30A and an output limit of 25A, but very few batteries are actually tested and rated for this.  In fact most independent testing shows that nearly all 18650's that are rated at 25+ continuous are only good for about 20.  The LG 18650 HB6 is rated at 30A but only 1500mAh, the Aspire ICR 40A is rated to 40 but testing shows that is is near failure at 35,  The VTC3 and 4 are both good at 30 but show signs of damage (if you can find genuine ones).

I am not worried for myself.  I have a fairly good grasp on the limits of my batteries, and builds.  I mostly run VTC4s and 25R's.  I am worried about the newbie who ends up buying one of these and puts a generic 18650 in it that isn't rated high enough.

 

[cany]

You guys are blowing my mind with all this techy stuff   But I still read trying too learn......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jasonculp]

 

Wonky a $ $ upgrade...lol

For me, it is just one of the dangers of being a total nerd.  I want to know how, and why everything works the way it does.  When I was driving all day, I listen to books.  When I get home, I read or take classes online.  It is really a PITA sometimes.  If I get into something new, it becomes all consuming to understand how and why it works the way it does.

It may be easier/faster to write the code for temp control using Joules?

IMO, the best way to give us the control is a generic scale with no labels. Kind of like they do with the volume on TVs and radios. Imagine the confusion if they set that up with the decibel scale. The only plus side is that with a labeled scale you can compare device to device. It's easy with volume, if it hurts it's too loud.

 

I think they were scared of Evolv's patent.  (that is the Internet legend)  I agree with your idea on the generic scale.  Back when the 20W iStick came out, it was tuned to mean instead of RMS.  This meant if you set it for your normal settings on another mod it was quite a bit hotter.  I didn't understand all of the people griping about it. (except those who vaped lower than it would go down to)  I feel like if it is too hot turn it down, not hot enough turn it up.  I have 3 temp mods and I use different settings on each one.  I couldn't prove to the nearest 100 degrees  what the actual coil temperature is, and I don't really care.  If it is setting of 500 degrees and it is too cool, I turn it up!

 It's easy with volume, if it hurts it's too loud.

When I read that, in my brain it was: If it's too loud you're too old!....sorry old time head banger coming out in me.

 

And back to the original topic. With Ohm's Law is it possible that the chip is calculating battery voltage and coil resistance, and deciding that the batts will be drawing over a preset amp value, giving the warning? For example, I have read that the VTR is internally limited to 5 watts? (may or may not be true, just read it somewhere.)I haven't put any numbers into the formula to check, just a thought.

Most electronic mods do this.  Some will let you dial in anything you want, but only put out the maximum (or minimum) it can.  Others limit it based on ohm's law (on the screen).  What I am most curious about is can it tell due to the draw on the battery, and possibly the sag in voltage, when it is firing if the battery is has enough capacity to safely fire the mod.  Most electronic mods have the battery sag meter when you are firing it, but can they go a step further and calculate the capacity of the battery based on this?  I am just curious, as normal.

[FXRich]

You might try this joules to watts calculator. http://rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Joule_to_Watt_Calculator.htm

[jasonculp]

You might try this joules to watts calculator. http://rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Joule_to_Watt_Calculator.htm

That is where the rub is.  The mod is set at 30j.  This is impossible, because it has no idea how long I am going to push the button.  30j is 30watts for 1 second or 15watts for 2 seconds or 10watts for 3 seconds.  I know I am being nit-picky, and a bit nerdy...lol

[FXRich]

I thought when you set a TC mod you set the temperature. or did they change that because it was too easy.

[cany]

I thought when you set a TC mod you set the temperature. or did they change that because it was too easy.

You set the temp but also set the Watts

[jasonculp]

I thought when you set a TC mod you set the temperature. or did they change that because it was too easy.

With the iStick 40W that is how it is, but most others you set the wattage too.  I think it was Rixter that likened it to a cruise control (but backwards)  You set the temp to the maximum temp, this is your limit (cruise control), the watts are your accelerator pedal, how fast it gets to the limit.  I hope that makes sense.  Rixter did a much better job explaining it!

[FXRich]

Sure am glad I decided to hold off on TC for awhile.

[jasonculp]

Sure am glad I decided to hold off on TC for awhile.

You can't go by my posts, I'm a nerd....lol

In my opinion it is best vape experience to date.  There are a few kinks, but overall it is a great experience.  I have even been tempted to order a protank mini and try the new kanger Ni200 coils for them.  I have tried the Nautilus and it is good.  It is getting simple enough I would feel comfortable recomending an iStick 40W TC with either the protank mini or Nautilus, or possibly the SubTank mini to a newbie.  I have a buddy who moved up from cigalikes to an Evic VT Kit and he is loving it, but he is a nerd like me....lol

[FXRich]

In the past two months I bought 3 Kanger subtank mini kits and 2 extra subtank minis, I spent enough for awhile. We were all noobs/nerds when we first started.