Clones or Counterfeits?

[Adversarious1]

I know there is another fairly recent topic related to cloned items, but I had a brief conversation via Instagram with some folks about clones and I ultimately brought up what I think is a very valid point, so I wanted to have folks look at the topic of clones from a slightly different angle.

First, I wholly understand why a person would choose a clone mod or atomizer over an authentic - money.  I don't begrudge folks who are trying to do what they can to save money and stay within their budget.  The most important thing is that the people who do buy clones are taking steps to quit smoking and in the end, that's really what matters.

I do, however, have a huge problem with companies that clone items then try to pass them off as authentic.  We've all seen them.  Sure, there are companies that freely admit their products are clones, but how many stories have we heard of people buying what they thought was an authentic only to discover later it was a "clone".  That isn't cloning, that is counterfeiting.  That is theft of someone else's intellectual property. 

To me, a clone is something copied with the express permission of the creator.  For example, my very first PC was a Computerland BC88.  This was an IBM compatible "clone" PC.  It wasn't the first "clone" PC, nor was it the last, but it was manufactured with permission.  Most "clones" on the market are not manufactured with permission...the designs are essentially stolen and the product produced is often passed off as authentic.

Personally, I stay away from clones.  That is a personal choice by me.  There is nothing on the market that I feel I need to have so badly that I feel I need to go out and buy a clone just so I can have one.  If I see something I want, I save up for it.  Having a brother who is not only a machinist and not only designs a lot of the parts his company manufactures, but he designs the parts that make those parts, I have seen firsthand the frustration companies must go through when they have their designs stolen.  Designing a new product takes time, effort and frequently, a lot of trial and error.  This is something I understand, which is a large part of the reason I choose to purchase authentics.  The way I look at it is I'm supporting the innovators who will be able to create even more innovative products.  The cloners will just wait for the innovators to innovate, then steal the designs.  Again, just a personal choice, but I'm interested in other points of view.

 

 

[FXRich]

Speaking as a machine shop owner I WILL NOT produce a part for a customer that wants me to build to someone else's print. It is bad for  business and may cause legal problems. But most clones are made in China and I don't believe they care about  someone else's intellectual property.

[Tam]

For the most part, I agree with what you've written, but here are a couple of other things to consider:

Rarity and scarcity of the authentic.

The K100, an Empire Mod clone made by Empire Mods. It's an exceptionally rare mod and only becomes available once every God-knows-when because it's hand machined by one man. When they do become available, they run about $160 or a little more vs. the clones that go for under $50. The higher price is more than worth it due to the high quality and craftsmanship. I've been on their "notify" list for the past couple of years. In the mean time I got the clone (won it as a door prize at my first vape meet, actually). It's a solid workhorse, if a little on the heavy side.

Another thing would be that the authentic has a few flaws. Customers have been contacting the original manufacturer with requests to fix these flaws and have been ignored. Clones are made with the flaw fixed, which makes the clones better "quality" than the authentic. I know I've heard a couple of RBA/RDA in this category but can't remember the specific name at the moment. In these cases, wouldn't a clone be acceptable?

In my opinion? I think so. 

[FXRich]

There are exceptions. I have a customer (also a friend) that builds reproduction Sharps rifles, I make parts for him knowing that he did not design the part and probably doesn't have permission from anyone at Sharps to copy their rifle. Christian Sharps died a long time ago. I'm also very sure that the patents expired a long time ago.

[Adversarious1]

For the most part, I agree with what you've written, but here are a couple of other things to consider:

Rarity and scarcity of the authentic.

The K100, an Empire Mod clone made by Empire Mods. It's an exceptionally rare mod and only becomes available once every God-knows-when because it's hand machined by one man. When they do become available, they run about $160 or a little more vs. the clones that go for under $50. The higher price is more than worth it due to the high quality and craftsmanship. I've been on their "notify" list for the past couple of years. In the mean time I got the clone (won it as a door prize at my first vape meet, actually). It's a solid workhorse, if a little on the heavy side.

That is precisely the point I'm trying to make. In my opinion, the K100 is acceptable. Kamry manufactures, calls and markets it as the K100, an "Empire style mod". They do not call it or market it as an Empire Mod and they don't package it as an Empire Mod. There are others who clone items, right down to the name and engraving of serial numbers, but package them as their product, essentially letting people know they are purchasing a clone, such as Tobeco. But there are plenty of manufacturers out there who blatantly try to pass off their products as authentic, right down to the packaging. To me, it doesn't matter if the item has been improved upon or not. Duplicating and marketing a product as an authentic at an authentic price when it isn't, in my opinion, is counterfeiting. It's theft...not only theft of the intellectual property of the original designer, but theft from the consumers as well. They are capitalizing on the name and workmanship of another company. I guess I could have been a little clearer in my OP. I don't necessarily have an issue with clones, per se. I definitely don't have an issue with somebody purchasing a clone Kennedy RDA for $20 vs. spending $80 on an authentic. Where I have an issue is with companies claiming they are the real deal and defrauding unknowing customers.

[Adversarious1]

I don't know how that last post ended up as a full quote...darn Tapatalk :rolleyes:

[jasonculp]

I totally agree with everything said here.

There is somthing seriously wrong with someone who will sell a clone as authentic.  I can understand when a store unknowingly buys a clone, and resells it, but otherwise no.

I have fallen victim to it a few times, and each time the store denied it.  I made sure plenty of locals knew about it.  I have only bought one thing online as genuine, that turned out to be a clone, and it was batteries.  They were cheap, and work just as well as the originals, so I really have not been too bothered by it. (In fact they may be original, but the markings are different than all of my others, they are very, very close)

The morality of clones all together, I feel you have to take on a case by case basis.  My all day vape is a Zero clone.  The original "Carlos Creations Zero" can run from $300 up and over 6 months wait.  I have never had the desire to buy one, and still don't.  I bought it for the chip, a DNA clone (lol) that does 60 watts plus has a nickel purity setting.  All of my mechanicals and RDA's are clones, and it was totally by design.  I was not sure if dripping/mechanicals would be my thing, and it turned out it wasn't.  I only have a couple of hundred invested in the last year.  Most of the things I am in the market for, I would never buy clones, knowingly.

[MudDrum]

I see this as two different problems.

1.  A company that clones something.
2.  Someone sells a clone as the original.

I buy things that are marked 'clone' or 'styled' and do not have a problem with that.
I know up front what I am getting.  
For that reason, I would never buy from a B&M just on their say so...

[Earthling789]

I've bought a couple of counterfeit "authentic" tanks from the local B&M last summer, and I'm sure they did not even know they had purchased counterfeits from their wholesaler, because when I brought it to their attention, they had already been notified by other buyers, sent the rest of the inventory back to the wholesaler, and offered to replace my tanks with authentics or give me store-credit... I took the store credit, lol.  The tanks worked, but not nearly as refined and smooth in their threading, and the o-rings were crap.  Now, I thoroughly inspect anything I buy from a B&M   I agree, counterfeiting is theft, and where I draw the line.  I would not willingly or knowingly purchase a counterfeit. 

I have no issues with companies cloning or "styled as", as long as it is clearly marked as such... I know what I'm buying, and they know what they are selling.  As Tam said, there are clones out there that have improved or corrected minor faults of the originals, and many of the 1:1 clones have the blessing of the original manufacturer to produce them.

I have several clones from reputable cloning companies (HCigar, Infinite, etc), and honestly, the function of my Russian 91% clones was so good, that I decided to invest in two authentic as well.  I can honestly say, the authentic are slightly better made (but only slightly in threading and polish).  So, are the authentic Russians worth it to me?  Yes, to support the authentic company had have bragging-rights that I own authentic, but no, to the 600% cost difference, when the vape is basically identical.... AND, my clones have never leaked... the authentic DO leak from time to time out of the fill-port, and the clones have slightly larger capacity, air-flow port, and juice-channels... so in all honestly, the clones have improved over the original?

If any company takes something to be manufactured in China, they WILL have it cloned and sold cheaper through other outlets!  China does not honor any patent agreements, nor do they treat your intellectual property as yours, and yours alone.  They contract to produce X-items, or produce for X-hours a day to your specs... they then run their lines during the off-contract time to produce clones (using other materials, cheaper materials, different colors, etc.) to extend their profit margins and justify tooling/set-up costs.  It's just the way they do business.  If you don't want your product cloned (from day-one)... don't let the Chinese have your blueprints!

[iQuit]

I seldom visit B&M stores, and the few times I did, most of what they sell are clones. 2 of those stores trying to pass Kayfun V4s as "authentic" for a bargain price of $100 for a limited time.  One of them still has FT green sticker on the back of the box. lol That is why I seldom buy anything from a B&M store.

I buy both clones and authentic. For toppers less than $50, and mods under $100, I will buy authentic. Sometimes I am willing to pay more for if I think they are worth it. I have more RDA clones than the real deal because more often than not, I end up modifying them... or at least it is on my project list.