Let's Talk Temp Control

[cany]

What kind of wire are you using and what gauge is it?

It says pure nickel 28ga+10m

[Bebop]

Thanks for the pics, cany

 

i will get back to you in a little bit.

 

[Bebop]

Well, here's my first guess as to what is going on....

According to the calculator, 9 wraps should give you (.13) resistance.

But you can see that if the coils is wider tthan the posts, tbe wire bends back in and touches itself and probabaly loses a wrap or two of resistance. In any case its messing with the resistance and possibly messing with Your electronics.

Try to bend the wire out and then back in to the post if you can. Otherwise you can do more wraps and take the loss in resistance.

Also, i wrap the coil as tight as possible then spring it out a little from each end. Then compress it and you'll end up with a tighter coil but not touching.  It takes a little playibg around but you get better at it.

Wick your coil so it just touches the deck and dont block the juice channels. After you assemble the sleeve, use a needleor something to gently move the wick away from the juice channels without mashing your wick. Prime it up good than put yourcoil cap on and then assemble to tank.  You probably need a little less wick than you think.

Im a big fan of the closed air hole primer puff to start the wicking action. Close your air off. Couple quick pulls. Open up the air and fire off.

If you are hitting your temp limit quickly after a few puffs, it means your wicking isnt working well. Get that wick performing and you will be happy

[cany]

Ahhhh thats my issue the coil being wider than the posts I need too bend the legs out then in a bit

[jasonculp]

Thats a 2nd dry fire

 

I don't dry fire my nickel coils.  I don't know if this is right or wrong.  I have just read that you really don't want to overheat nickel, and it is easy to do.  I mainly have quit because I am lazy and I don't have to squeeze the coils since they are not touching...lol

Well, here's my first guess as to what is going on....

Everything you said is exactly the trouble I am having with the SubTank Mini.  I have been tempted to grind off the tabs that stick up, but they work so good on Kanthal builds, I don't want to remove them.  I am still using mine with a factory OCC .15 coil in it with a backup flavor.

[cany]

I think I might try filing out  the inside of the little tabs to gain some room

Edited July 6, 2015 by cany

[DragonGunner]

Hey all I have a dumb question. Vaping a .15 ohm ni200 coil is equivalent to vaping what ohm kanthal build?

[jasonculp]

Hey all I have a dumb question. Vaping a .15 ohm ni200 coil is equivalent to vaping what ohm kanthal build?

That's a good question.  I am running a .14 as we speak.  It is in the SauceCode, so I am getting good airflow, and juice flow.  I am having to cut my Nicotine/Flavor level I have gone from 18 mg to 9 mg, and thinking of going to 4 - 4.5 mg.  I was not much of a sub ohm vapor, but I would definately guess that it is at least simular to a .5 or lower Kanthal build, but I think my settings on my mod make a lot of difference too.  I am running at 30 watts and 370 degrees.

This is just a S.W.A.G.

[Bebop]

Hey all I have a dumb question. Vaping a .15 ohm ni200 coil is equivalent to vaping what ohm kanthal build?

interesting question....I'm just trying to understand it....I don't know that they can be compared. 

As soon as temp control kicks in on a Ni coil, it performs differently than a kanthal build, no?  Up until that point I would think it would be the same.  You can throw all kinds of power at a kanthal build and it's constant - it doesn't care about temp

 

my first answer is it is equivalent if the power you throw at a Ni coil does not kick in temp control

 

if coil temp is a limiting factor, how can you compare them?  I guess you'd have to be able to measure the coil temperature on a kanthal build, which I don't believe would be constant any way and if you think about it the only thing that limits your temp on a K build is juice flow and airflow.....and maybe time - how long it's fired. 

 

[jasonculp]

interesting question....I'm just trying to understand it....I don't know that they can be compared. 

As soon as temp control kicks in on a Ni coil, it performs differently than a kanthal build, no?  Up until that point I would think it would be the same.  You can throw all kinds of power at a kanthal build and it's constant - it doesn't care about temp

 

my first answer is it is equivalent if the power you throw at a Ni coil does not kick in temp control

 

if coil temp is a limiting factor, how can you compare them?  I guess you'd have to be able to measure the coil temperature on a kanthal build, which I don't believe would be constant any way and if you think about it the only thing that limits your temp on a K build is juice flow and airflow.....and maybe time - how long it's fired. 

 

The more I think about it I agree with you.  You really can't compare them they are really as far apart as a mechanical is to a variable wattage device.

[DragonGunner]

That is very interesting Bebop and Jason. I think I tend to believe that as well. It's just so hard understanding it. I know that I like it and it works so I guess I'll leave all that brainiac stuff to folks who really understand ohms and stuff and just concentrate on perfecting my builds. 

I'm still running my kanthal/ni200 twisted wire and its performing flawlessly. After about 4-5 tanks I remove the gunked up cotton and use an old toothbrush to clean the coils. Its amazing after a few quick brushes the coil becomes nearly perfect shiny again. I'm finally getting tons of life out of my coils.

[jasonculp]

 

I'm still running my kanthal/ni200 twisted wire and its performing flawlessly. After about 4-5 tanks I remove the gunked up cotton and use an old toothbrush to clean the coils. Its amazing after a few quick brushes the coil becomes nearly perfect shiny again. I'm finally getting tons of life out of my coils.

I am getting about a week with my wicking.  Even ones I have changed look good.  I am running pretty low temps.

[Bebop]

DragonGunner -  are you using TC on your zephyrus? Have you used it in single coil mode? If so, how do you set it up?

do they have a single coil deck for it?

[DragonGunner]

That's a big negative Bebop on the TC or single coil on the Zephyrus. I will try a single coil as soon as I get back to work though. 

[DragonGunner]

Here's a pic of my twisted kanthal/ni200 after a week of use. I brushed it lightly under water and after it was dried. I can notice some bits of gunk but for the most part it still looks pretty good. (.15 ohm coil)

Edited July 11, 2015 by DragonGunner

[jasonculp]

Here's a pic of my twisted kanthal/ni200 after a week of use. I brushed it lightly under water and after it was dried. I can notice some bits of gunk but for the most part it still looks pretty good. (.15 ohm coil)

I am trying one of those right now, in my SubTank mini.  I took some 32ga Kanthal and some 30ga Ni200 and twisted them.  I put about 5 or 6 wraps on 3mm and it ohmed out at .12.  It is working pretty good.

[halfcam79]

When twisting Kanthal and NI200 wire are you running it in temp or power mode? I didn't think that you could do this.

Sorry if posted in the wrong place.

[Bebop]

That's a big negative Bebop on the TC or single coil on the Zephyrus. I will try a single coil as soon as I get back to work though. 

yeah I have yet to try a single coil.  I just want to take the time to work out the plug.

When twisting Kanthal and NI200 wire are you running it in temp or power mode? I didn't think that you could do this.

Sorry if posted in the wrong place.

he's running it in temp mode.  Guys are having success making smaller coils with twisted kanthal/Ni. Somehow the kanthal raises the resistance of the Ni but doesn't defeat the TC properties.  I haven't reasoned out the science for myself yet but it's working. 

Edited July 13, 2015 by Bebop

[halfcam79]

Thanks Bebop, I know what I'll be trying...

[Bebop]

I will probably try it myself some time. Right now I'm pretty happy building larger coils. 

[jasonculp]

yeah I have yet to try a single coil.  I just want to take the time to work out the plug.

he's running it in temp mode.  Guys are having success making smaller coils with twisted kanthal/Ni. Somehow the kanthal raises the resistance of the Ni but doesn't defeat the TC properties.  I haven't reasoned out the science for myself yet but it's working. 

Thanks Bebop!  I have been absent all day.

Yes I am running it in Temp mode.  It seems to screw up your temp readings a bit (like they were actually accurate anyway)  I just adjust it to taste/heat and set it there.  My cheap zero mod really seems to like it.

[Adversarious1]

Thanks Bebop!  I have been absent all day.

Yes I am running it in Temp mode.  It seems to screw up your temp readings a bit (like they were actually accurate anyway)  I just adjust it to taste/heat and set it there.  My cheap zero mod really seems to like it.

The reason a kanthal/Ni200 build seems to mess up temp readings is because it actually does mess up the temp

readings...basically the chip is fooled into a false reading.

An explanation in a nutshell: We all know (or should if we're playing with our own coils) that electricity follows the path of the least resistance.  In the case of a kanthal/Ni200 coil, the nickel is going to have the least resistance...but only for a certain amount of time.  As the nickel heats up, the resistance ramps up.  Eventually, the resistance in the nickel is going to match or exceed that of the kanthal, so the power from your battery is going to be diverted to the kanthal until the resistance of the nickel is lower than the kanthal again.

The chip recognizes the fact nickel is present, which is why the TC will still basically work.  But the presence of the kanthal sort of "throws it for a loop".  I'm guessing your temps are actually higher than what your device is reading.  That's because the kanthal is adding additional heat when it heats up, but the chip doesn't know how to process the information from the kanthal.

This is a very basic explanation of what's going on, but hopefully it will shed some light on both why kanthal/nickel builds work and why it throws temp settings off. 

yeah I have yet to try a single coil.  I just want to take the time to work out the plug.

he's running it in temp mode.  Guys are having success making smaller coils with twisted kanthal/Ni. Somehow the kanthal raises the resistance of the Ni but doesn't defeat the TC properties.  I haven't reasoned out the science for myself yet but it's working. 

I haven't done a twisted kanthal/Ni build personally, but I think I have theory of what is going on.  I want to do a couple of test builds before I post  any specific information as to why the kanthal seems to raise the resistance of the nickel.  I don't have any Ni200 on hand, but I do have some Ti wire.  I should get similar results from the Ti.  I'll try to get the test done tonight and share my findings.  If I can't get to it tonight, then I will definitely get to it tomorrow afternoon.

[jasonculp]

The reason a kanthal/Ni200 build seems to mess up temp readings is because it actually does mess up the temp........

I think you are correct.  The temperature coefficient resistance of kanthal is nearly nonexistent. A 1 ohm coil at 212 degrees (F) only goes up to 1.01 at 932 degrees (F); whereas, the a .1 ohm Ni200 coil at 68 degrees would be 428 degrees at .22.  I have no way to check what my kanthal coil's resistance is compared to my Ni200.  But the Ni200 is the path of least resistance, unless the heat makes it higher than the resistance of the Kanthal (if it does).  This has to really screw up the numbers...lol.

I want to try some of the other wires out there that are available.  I am a little sketchy on the Titanium.  I have read a lot of bad, and a lot of people who say it is safe.  317L stainless is another option, but would require recalibrating the temp curve (way beyond my abilities) and NiFe30 as used in a Dicodes Mod (too expensive).  I wish I had the money to blow on one of thesemods, the ability to customize it is amazing.  Using settings you can adjust it to be accurate with any of the wires above (except Kanthal).  If you have a few hours to blow, google it and find the paper they wrote on temp control, it is fascinating!  It explains it so well.

I just wish there was somthing that had a bit more resistance than Ni200.  That is why I am adding the Kanthal.  It can be frustrating to build such big coils.  The one I was just messing with was going to take nearly 20 wraps each coil, to do a dual coil (.15 ohms overall resistance)  I clipped the wire on the last leg...got p *** d off and came back to the den...

[jasonculp]

 

I haven't done a twisted kanthal/Ni build personally, but I think I have theory of what is going on.  I want to do a couple of test builds before I post  any specific information as to why the kanthal seems to raise the resistance of the nickel.  I don't have any Ni200 on hand, but I do have some Ti wire.  I should get similar results from the Ti.  I'll try to get the test done tonight and share my findings.  If I can't get to it tonight, then I will definitely get to it tomorrow afternoon.

Dangit....  Adversarious1  now you have me curious.  I am going to have to look into the "why".  I need sleep tonight....lol

[Adversarious1]

Dangit....  Adversarious1  now you have me curious.  I am going to have to look into the "why".  I need sleep tonight....lol

If it's any consolation, my theory with the Ti is "sort of" panning out. I still want to run the same tests with Ni200 though. Basically my theory has to do with the twisting of the wire. For example, the nickel in a 5 inch section of Ni200 after it has been twisted with kanthal should produce a higher ohm reading than a straight 5 inch piece of nickel because the twisted length actually has more than 5 inches due to the twisting. Hopefully that makes sense. If it doesn't then I 'm claiming I'm tired and on my way to being three sheets to the wind. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.