Change, Big Time !

[nana]

And I thought I was young to be a grandma at 38! LOL I have a son-in-law who is only 4 years younger than me.

I have to admit that I was a bit surprised to read this post and see how many people seem to think just like me. It's refreshing.

[FTJoe]

a Guinness

Mmmmm - you mean the staff of life? Mother's milk?

[Skwerl]

What I'm saying is, caring, and being outraged, and investing time, and writing letters, and talking to local government, seem like such a waste when, not only do you not see any positive change, but things just spiral further down the drain. I wish I could just not care, mostly because I care so much.

Don't give up! I started getting discouraged too, but then I realized they only have the power we lend them. Vote the bums out, replace with new bums, vote them out too. Until the charlatans realize we mean business and they work for us- not the other way around. Its not about left, right, republican or Democrat...its about us. You aren't alone, many of us feel the same way.

[Brian]

I have to admit that I was a bit surprised to read this post and see how many people seem to think just like me. It's refreshing.

Commonly called The Silent Majority.

[Mark]

so why are we so silent?---Me, I'm just lazy

[Gazoo]

so why are we so silent?---Me, I'm just lazy

people with IQs over 135 tend to be less physically motivated

[Brian]

people with IQs over 135 tend to be less physically motivated

Ahhhh! GOOD ANSWER!!!

[keenan]

people with IQs over 135 tend to be less physically motivated

THATS why Im so sedentary ! -------> Guiness

Edited December 10, 2009 by keenan

[vapemudgeon]

Remember Jimmy Carter gave us Reagan the Great !!!!!!!!!!

[nana]

Yep, that's the answer. Me too!

Great minds think alike.

[FTJoe]

Don't give up! I started getting discouraged too, but then I realized they only have the power we lend them. Vote the bums out, replace with new bums, vote them out too. Until the charlatans realize we mean business and they work for us- not the other way around. Its not about left, right, republican or Democrat...its about us. You aren't alone, many of us feel the same way.

Apathy, then anarchy. Mark my words. No one even wants to hear my rants anymore about the gov, banks, the fed because the 401Ks are al coming back, everyone says things are fine so they must be. Hahaha, Goldman Sachs is large and in charge. I might even start voting just for the heck of it. I stopped when I realized they were all liars and I didn't like the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils and they really don't mean what they say. Guess how long ago that was. The two party system stinks. Hmmm, maybe this is a rant? ;-)

The Guinness discussion is much more rewarding!!!!

Edited December 10, 2009 by FTJoe

[keenan]

Apathy, then anarchy. Mark my words. No one even wants to hear my rants anymore about the gov, banks, the fed because the 401Ks are al coming back, everyone says things are fine so they must be. Hahaha, Goldman Sachs is large and in charge. I might even start voting just for the heck of it. I stopped when I realized they were all liars and I didn't like the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils and they really don't mean what they say. Guess how long ago that was. The two party system stinks. Hmmm, maybe this is a rant? ;-)

The Guinness discussion is much more rewarding!!!!

Joe, PLEASE dont stop ranting, ranting is my FAVORITE part of this forum ! I am almost afraid to SAY the word anarchy, as the mere thought of it happening frightens me. Its what has seperated "us" from "them" for 200 plus years. But, and this is the FIRST time Im saying it out loud, I DO believe it MAY come to that, if this current trend continues. This country was founded as the result of a Revolution, by men who were tired of having thier "Liberties usurped". They then put thier pen to parchment, declared thier basic human rights, and took up arms to defend them. Yes, I believe we are close again. I am NOT an anarchist, or anti-government, or a right wing radical. I am an American who LOVES his country, has served and fought for it, and who is watching it slip away on a daily basis. Rant on Joe, Im right behind you !

[FTJoe]

Joe, PLEASE dont stop ranting, ranting is my FAVORITE part of this forum ! I am almost afraid to SAY the word anarchy, as the mere thought of it happening frightens me. Its what has seperated "us" from "them" for 200 plus years. But, and this is the FIRST time Im saying it out loud, I DO believe it MAY come to that, if this current trend continues. This country was founded as the result of a Revolution, by men who were tired of having thier "Liberties usurped". They then put thier pen to parchment, declared thier basic human rights, and took up arms to defend them. Yes, I believe we are close again. I am NOT an anarchist, or anti-government, or a right wing radical. I am an American who LOVES his country, has served and fought for it, and who is watching it slip away on a daily basis. Rant on Joe, Im right behind you !

Here's proof I know how to rant, and it gets way worse than this after a few vodkas. Don't even get me started on all the Goldman Sachs alum that have positioned themselves all throughout our government and the GS bootlickers like Timmy Geithner. Funny how as NY Fed chief Timmy negotiated payment to GS at 100 cents on the dollar from AIG when everyone else was getting 15-30 cents, nice money if you can get it, 13 billion dollars of taxpayer money AIG handed over to GS and more to foreign banks. Wow a rant preceding my rant...deep breaths ;-) ...

Real rant follows...I always point out that, in my humble opinion, I believe the founding fathers would simply ask for a do-over if they were here now to witness what is going on. IMHO - started in the early 30s, post crash. Social programs are fine, but have been out of control for decades as they are used to garner votes and no one seems to care. Seems like the middle class (loose definition) takes the brunt of the failure of the programs as they don't seem to be able to partake, yet pay quite a bit for them. I guess I wouldn't mind so much if I thought the people running the show had a clue, I believe they do not. Even the current bunch of libs crying about getting the rich to pay more seemed to go pretty far out of their way to make sure the Wall Street banks not only survived, but made incredible amounts of money for themselves over the last year as unemployment climbed. They made it by investing the taxpayer money lent to them. I think the big O isn't complicit, just has surrounded himself with what amounts to banksters instead of economists. Check out his number one guy, Larry Summers, granted he is an economist but makes millions doing it, dude blew up Harvard with a bad investment on derivatives, was instrumental under Clinton in repealing the Glass Steagall act that in large part led to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers

Excerpts:

Summers hailed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999, which lifted more than six decades of restrictions against banks offering commercial banking, insurance, and investment services (by repealing key provisions in the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act): "Today Congress voted to update the rules that have governed financial services since the Great Depression and replace them with a system for the 21st century," Summers said.[14] "This historic legislation will better enable American companies to compete in the new economy."[14] Many critics, including President Barack Obama, have suggested the 2007 subprime mortgage financial crisis was caused by the partial repeal of the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act.[15] Indeed, as a member of President Clinton's Working Group on Financial Markets, Summers, along with U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) Chairman Arthur Levitt, Fed Chairman Greenspan, and Secretary Rubin, torpedoed an effort to regulate the derivatives that many blame for bringing the financial market down in Fall 2008.[16]

During Summers' presidency at Harvard, the University entered into a series totalling US$3.52 billion of interest rate swaps, financial derivatives that can be used for either hedging or speculation.[29] By late 2008, those positions had lost approximately $1 billion in value. This forced Harvard to borrow significant sums in distressed market conditions to meet margin calls on the swaps.[30] The decision to enter into the swap positions has been attributed to Summers and has been termed a "massive interest-rate gamble" that ended badly.[31]

Summers sparked international outrage by speculating at an economics conference that innate differences between men and women might be one of the reasons women lag behind in science and math careers. As a result, on February 21, 2006, Summers announced his intention to step down at the end of the school year effective June 30, 2006.

On October 19, 2006, he became a part-time managing director of the investment and technology development firm D. E. Shaw & Co. He was paid $5.2 million in his second of two years working there, while being physically present in the office just one day a week.[35]

In January 2009, as the Obama Administration tried to pass an economic stimulus spending bill, Oregon Democratic Representative Peter DeFazio criticized Summers, saying that he thought that President Barack Obama is "ill-advised by Larry Summers. Larry Summers hates infrastructure."[41] DeFazio, along with liberal economists including Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, has argued that more of the stimulus should be spent on infrastructure,[42] while Summers has supported tax cuts.[citation needed]

Summers has recently come under fire for accepting perks from Citigroup, including free rides on its corporate jet in 2008.[43] According to the Wall Street Journal, Larry Summers called Chris Dodd asking him to remove caps on executive pay at firms which have received stimulus money, including Citigroup.[44]

On April 3, 2009 Summers came under renewed criticism after it was disclosed that he was paid millions of dollars the previous year by companies which he now has influence over as a public servant. He earned $5 million from the hedge fund D. E. Shaw, and collected $2.7 million in speaking fees from Wall Street companies that received government bailout money.[45]

Edited December 10, 2009 by FTJoe

[keenan]

Joe, AWESOME rant. I have ALWAYS said, if you want to get to the root of this countrys problems, FOLLOW THE MONEY. Capitalism begat Prosperity. Prosperity begat Greed. Greed begat Dissention. And welcome to 2009 ! I think it is an absolute crime that EVERY elected official in this country wins thier position NOT on the basis of thier political beliefs as much as how much theyve accumilated in thier "war chests". Its gotten to the point that the race for the Presidency begins the DAY AFTER the general election, so the candidates can gather as many donations as humanly possible ! That sickens me to no end. Its ALL about the money. We keep electing bluebloods and gloryhounds to office, who have NO earthly idea what its like to struggle day to day. What its like to have to decide WHICH bill to put off for another week to pay another bill. Its like hiring a plumber to fix your faucet whos never seen a leaky faucet. Then, with Senators and Congressmen, we put them in office, with the best retirement plan on the face of the earth, the best healthcare in the universe, and expect them to take care of OUR retirement and healthcare. The answer to healthcare is simple. Want to lower the costs. MAKE THEM PAY FOR THIERS. Want to help every American - PUT US ON THIER PLAN ! I GUARUNTEE you, if you make it so THEY have to pay the same as us, they'll come up with a plan toot sweet !!!! If thier 401k's were in the same peril as ours, you can bet the baby's milk money our 401k's would be gaurded like Fort Knox. With this new joke of a healthcare plan theyre trying to pull over our eyes, there is not ONE concession from a Govt. entity to lower cost, just sacrifice and struggle from business and the individual. I fear for our future, seriously. I fear if something BIG doesnt happen SOON, something BIG is gonna happen.

[vapemudgeon]

Apathy, then anarchy. Mark my words. No one even wants to hear my rants anymore about the gov, banks, the fed because the 401Ks are al coming back, everyone says things are fine so they must be. Hahaha, Goldman Sachs is large and in charge. I might even start voting just for the heck of it. I stopped when I realized they were all liars and I didn't like the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils and they really don't mean what they say. Guess how long ago that was. The two party system stinks. Hmmm, maybe this is a rant? ;-)

The Guinness discussion is much more rewarding!!!!

Voting is our ultimate right.... It's our ticket to bi#$^ ! And yes, sometimes we are left with the choice of lessor/greater evils but if we don't choose we end up with the latter !!

The problem with a third or forth (And so on) party is that we end up with a leader elected by 1/3 or less of the voters...... Then, literally, no one is happy. The debate becomes watered down so far that you end up voting for someone on maybe just one issue !

As far as the Goldman Sach' of the world, they are the engine that makes the whole thing run. Yes, we are the fuel, but without a place to work we have nothing. Employment comes through investment. It doesn't matter whether it's a large, medium or small business. Even our beloved e-cig suppler entrepreneurs get their "Product" and or raw materials form a large company (Chinese or not).

Every "System" throughout history has a ruling class and an underclass.... and always will. What has made America great was the creation of the before unknown "Middle" class... which makes up the bulk of our citizens. Look around yourself.... computer, big screen, microwave, ipod, cellphone, multiple cars........... Need I say more ! Even our "Downtrodden" are wealthier than most of the rest of the world !! Thank you "Evil Conglomerates" !!!

As Gordon Gecko once said "Greed works" ! These conglomerates, though sometimes "Evil" are a necessary one. The real mistake we have made is that rather than speaking loudly against the worst of these with our pocketbooks, we have asked the government to "Protect" us and thus handing over the power.

Someone once said that "Freedom is dangerous"..... We have to protect ourselves from "Snake oil salesmen".

SORRY ! Did I just say that out loud ?

[FTJoe]

Voting is our ultimate right.... It's our ticket to bi#$^ ! And yes, sometimes we are left with the choice of lessor/greater evils but if we don't choose we end up with the latter !!

And every vote counts. I respectfully disagree. I'll use the freedom I have here to choose not to vote. I can not in good conscience vote for someone I know is lying in regards to what they are promising, or even vote because I don't like the person that's in office. I've regretted that sometimes, Ron Paul I believe has convictions. The day the right to bitc- is tied to voting for these scum I'll proudly leave. I believe me paying taxes gives me the right to bitc-, not voting. If they say I can stop paying, I'll stop complaining. ;-)

The problem with a third or forth (And so on) party is that we end up with a leader elected by 1/3 or less of the voters...... Then, literally, no one is happy. The debate becomes watered down so far that you end up voting for someone on maybe just one issue !

All a two party system does is relegate independents to one minute of air time on the network news. Forces us to have one of only two people elected that are members of a political machine and by definition are not independent. That sounds yukky to me. Talk about lesser of two evils, how many people typically vote not for a candidate, but against a candidate the other party put up? Anyway, two party made sense in the horse and buggy days, electoral college made sense when communications was weeks away with other states. If you're going to force me to vote for one of two people, why can't I decide which democratic candidate AND which republican candidate I'll be voting for later on. I've heard interesting scenarios where you end up with only two candidates, maybe two dems, or one indy and one repub. You get the idea.

As Gordon Gecko once said "Greed works" ! These conglomerates, though sometimes "Evil" are a necessary one. The real mistake we have made is that rather than speaking loudly against the worst of these with our pocketbooks, we have asked the government to "Protect" us and thus handing over the power.

I thought the biggest joke through this whole thing was the fact that so much money was being given to these investment banks without a single question or requirement, yet when the car companies, a huge employer of people, came asking for some relatively small amounts of cash they were made to jump through hoops, show their business plans and had to go under anyway.

These banks are not banks, they used to be partnerships, then became publicly held, which means the stockholders have the risk, and the "executives" still reap the rewards. They hire very few people and do not stimulate the economy because they basically cater to the rich. Is there some trickle down argument to be made, perhaps in a normal economy, but not now. Flashback, a decision had to be made to "save" us from the edge. These companies came to our representatives, asked for help and the representatives decided in order to save main street we had to save wall street. After all, credit was now frozen so the small and medium size businesses had no credit. I'll use GS as the best example, because they really aren't a bank. So they were about to go under, and got a lot of money and the government had the accounting rules re-written so toxic assets didn't have to be put on the balance sheet. Did they start lending? No, I'm not even sure they lend to anyone at all (why were they converted to a bank again?). Did GS start investing the money, yes. They've made more money in the last few months one year after almost going under. Quite a little turnaround. Of course many argue, that's our money if they were investing what they were lent. Did we find out they had placed bets that the whole thing would go south, yes, this is the payment from AIG (our money) to GS.

IMHO, is IBM evil, no, is GS yes. They control the market, our economy and our government, of that I have no doubt and I make fun of people who are conspiracy nuts. One of the best sources for information is Mike Taibbi a reporter for the Rolling Stone. Some of his best work is on GS and what happened last year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Taibbi#Selected_articles_by_Taibbi

The bubble machine article is excellent, Taibbi basically attempts to demonstrate how GS has actually engineered every bubble since the Great Depression. I started reading him when he wrote the Big Takeover article, explains what happened more than a year ago. Rest of the articles are excellent as well.

If you want to see how the real banks are doing, the ones the FDIC lords over, the ones that lend to local businesses, etc., not the bogus banks, look here:

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

You'll see until 2008, a couple failed per year if at all. Now about 4-5 a week are failing. One concern is the FDIC is overworked or simply waiting to step in, this means the amount the FDIC has to pony up for each bacnk is pretty huge. Remember, they are the insurer...

Edited December 11, 2009 by FTJoe

[vapemudgeon]

Valid points all FTJoe ! But I do really believe that there is a very sharp edge between freedom and Gov't protection... I think we are a lot better off with big brother saying out of it. I have never seen them "Fix" anything. Protection turns into control and THAT definitely "Trickles" down.

There have been 3 major market "Crashes" in our history. The one in '29 was met by massive gov't intervention and lasted for more than a decade... The one in '87, which was actually bigger, was left alone and brought about a very shallow recession and a minor, short term drop in unemployment.... This one, 2008, once again massive intervention (Bush and Obama), and by most accounts is expected to last a decade as well.

I certainly never meant to imply that the government, using our tax dollars, should bail anything out ! If it is to fail it should fail ! There is always a next in line to fill the void..... and often better.

As far as adding multiple candidates onto a ballot, again, we end up with a non-majority (Maybe only 35%...or less) victor. Remember the Bush/Clinton election. The Ross Perot effect... Clinton won with only 37% of the vote.... Is satisfying only 1/3 of the electorate really the answer ?

Unfortunately the electoral college is still necessary, otherwise Presidential elections would be decided by Los Angeles, New York, Boston and Chicago.... And though one political stripe would relish that, the rest of the country would be left without a voice.

This is America ! And you make a profound point that, as a taxpayer, you have paid the price to bit#$.... I concede the point, you don't have to vote ! However, many Brave men and women have died (In just wars... or not) believing in that basic right. So I would offer that maybe just entering the booth and writing in "Bozo the Clown" would still honor their sacrifice !!!

Edited December 12, 2009 by vapemudgeon

[FTJoe]

Valid points all FTJoe ! But I do really believe that there is a very sharp edge between freedom and Gov't protection... I think we are a lot better off with big brother saying out of it. I have never seen them "Fix" anything. Protection turns into control and THAT definitely "Trickles" down.

Agreed about the above. I guess I still bristle at the greed is good mentality. But that's kind of what brought about many of the crashes we've experienced. This crash was coming on for 20 years and the people that knew it was coming told the people in the government who could do something about it and they were ignored. The "banks" were taking on incredible risk, the ratings companies were handing out AAA ratings on the CDO products (now affectionately known as toxic assets) like they were candy, AIG couldn't take the hedge bets quick enough and then it all fell apart and they come and say, we've made billions and billions on this scam, now we're in trouble can you help? I almost puke every time I think about it. So they get bailed out, NO ONE GOES TO JAIL, and what is going to prevent this from happening again? That's where I think the gov could help instead of protecting their banker buddies. Let the companies go down, indict the people who knew this was yet another ponzi scheme (GS) and maybe they won't be so quick to do it next time. Instead these same people are going to be paid immense bonuses and probably crank another bubble up again and put the world economy at risk, again. They shouldn't have the power they have to bring the world to its knees, not sure how we prevent that now without gov control. And you are right, the gov are the last people who would be able to do it anyway, between the bootlickers and criminals are the inepts. Latest bill up is a joke. I like how they gave all the credit companies a warning rates would be frozen, gave them time to bump them before the freeze then some are posturing they need to spped up the process because rates are going up...are they kidding? Are they trying to pretend they were too dumb to realize they were giving an early warning to the credit card comps?

I remember a couple of months ago Moody's (a rating company) told the media if the US didn't get its ducks in a row it would have to think about reducing it's AAA rating. I couldn't believe it but then someone pointed out it was actually a threat because the gov was making noise about moving away from Moody's service to other companies in light of the fact that Moody's was, at best, faulty in their handling of the CDO ratings. A threat? They should be going to jail for all that they did and then issuing a statement like that.

Disagree about voting and the current practices, I know what you mean about the college and multiple candidates but there are alternatives. And I definitely take exception to the comment that anyone might be satisfied after someone is elected. ;-) I guess I'd rather see a popular vote be a popular vote. There are realistically only two candidates that will run, one democratic, one republican. How archaic is it that only the people who feel so strongly about one party or another (liberal or conservative) get to choose who runs? Then the rest of us get to pick between just those two?

I have to find some of the alternatives I've run across in the past, I ain't smart enough to think of them but I remember liking some. Okay, maybe I just liked the idea of killing the existing practices. ;-)

[keenan]

FTjoe, you just argued effectively to change my mind on a subject I have ALWAYS firmly believed. I NEVER looked at it, or had anyone MAKE the point, that YES, you DO have a right to gripe regardless of wether you vote or not. I have to agree, if you pay your taxes, you deserve that voice. I WOULD, however, have to say you are limited to your area of griping ( for lack of a better way of putting it, my brain just aint workin today ). I think, and, JMHO here, you cant really gripe about WHO is in power, if you dont participate in the process of putting them there. There is the argument, that "my vote doesnt really matter that much". Well, maybe so, but theres an ex-Vice President in Tennesse who would argue that with about 600 of us. Put aside whether or not it was an "honest" election, when the votes were counted, Gore lost by a gnats pubic hair. Yes, I have done a complete 180 here, you DO have the right to gripe about current events. Joe, you are now in a VERY small group of people who have been able to sway my opinion on something. Sometimes, being full blooded Irish can be a curse !

Edited December 12, 2009 by keenan

[Brian]

I'm pushing 42 years old, and I'm a little embarressed to say that this was the first time I've ever voted. Maybe I finally grew up, or maybe I just realized that it really does matter. I really only started to take an interest in politics about 8 years ago. My biggest beef with the last election process is that I feel like the mainstream media picked the candidates for both parties. Recall, McCain was down and out. It was the mainstream media that lifted him up. My vote was not exactly a vote for McCain, but a vote against Obama (which, of course makes me a racist, right?). Now, given that Bush derangement syndrome was rampant, I not sure a strong conservative could have won, but I would have much rather seen a Fred Thompson or Mit Romney in the race.

[keenan]

I'm pushing 42 years old, and I'm a little embarressed to say that this was the first time I've ever voted. Maybe I finally grew up, or maybe I just realized that it really does matter. I really only started to take an interest in politics about 8 years ago. My biggest beef with the last election process is that I feel like the mainstream media picked the candidates for both parties. Recall, McCain was down and out. It was the mainstream media that lifted him up. My vote was not exactly a vote for McCain, but a vote against Obama (which, of course makes me a racist, right?). Now, given that Bush derangement syndrome was rampant, I not sure a strong conservative could have won, but I would have much rather seen a Fred Thompson or Mit Romney in the race.

Hey Brian, i was a HUGE supporter of Fred Thompson, a real "FredHead". My wife and I actually met him at a gun show here in Florida, and I have pics of her talking to him and getting his autograph. I was unaware that cameras were not allowed at the event, and no one said a WORD to me as we walked in with it around my neck.I assume they thought I was a member of the media, who were there. When Fred walked in, my wife and I were in perfect position to meet him, and I started clicking away. Well, this hand reaches from behind me, grabs a hold of my camera like a storm trooper, and while hes trying to rip it out of my hands, he YELLS " NO DAMN PICTURE TAKING !, GIVE ME THAT!" I of course, aint lettin go, and yelled at him to get his hands off me. Fred, who by the way is a VERY big boy, at least 6'7" , reaches over, grabs the mans arm and sayd "back off there pardner, let this gentelman take a picture for his wife". It was one of the highlights of my life, as well as my wife. Also, on a side note, Fred looks kinda overweight in his movies and on T.V., but I was impressed, he doesnt look remotely heavy in person, and like I said, TALL man.

[Brian]

Hey Brian, i was a HUGE supporter of Fred Thompson, a real "FredHead". My wife and I actually met him at a gun show here in Florida, and I have pics of her talking to him and getting his autograph. I was unaware that cameras were not allowed at the event, and no one said a WORD to me as we walked in with it around my neck.I assume they thought I was a member of the media, who were there. When Fred walked in, my wife and I were in perfect position to meet him, and I started clicking away. Well, this hand reaches from behind me, grabs a hold of my camera like a storm trooper, and while hes trying to rip it out of my hands, he YELLS " NO DAMN PICTURE TAKING !, GIVE ME THAT!" I of course, aint lettin go, and yelled at him to get his hands off me. Fred, who by the way is a VERY big boy, at least 6'7" , reaches over, grabs the mans arm and sayd "back off there pardner, let this gentelman take a picture for his wife". It was one of the highlights of my life, as well as my wife. Also, on a side note, Fred looks kinda overweight in his movies and on T.V., but I was impressed, he doesnt look remotely heavy in person, and like I said, TALL man.

Cool story. Yea, he's definatley a big boy (not fat, big). I was disappointed that he didn't make a real play for the nomination. I think he could have been a real force... tells it like it is, calls it like he sees it. That's the way it should be. Of course, being from TN I was a little biased.

[nana]

Wow!!! Thanks for sharing that story, Keenan. Fantastic!! I like Fred, too, and was very disappointed when he dropped out of the race. (and it has nothing to do with the fact that his wife and I share the same name - LOL) I really enjoy listening to him. It's great to know he's as down to earth in person as he appears to be in interviews.

[vapemudgeon]

NICE... Keenan, I also love F.T. And would vote for him in a heartbeat.... We may again have a chance ! I think, now was not the time for him.... A true conservative is usually the one elected after a liberal regime, and visa versa..... History has proven that time and time again.

FTJoe, again, great points ! Call me a simpleton (My wife does !) but I try to make judgments based on what is to me obvious common sense (Again debatable with me !). Lets face it, you can show me articles and polls "Proving" your point ... And so can I ! The proof is always in the pudd'n. Corruption, Government and Business are synonymous. And that statement is even more true, with greater government power..... Name your favorite dictator ! So I guess what I'm saying is that, simply put, money and power breeds corruption... Always has, always will. So asking the government to save us from the evil bred is like asking the fox to guard the chicken coup ! Yes, we, the little guy suffer the consequences of "Their" actions ! Our only hope is that sometimes "We" can tell the difference between the fox and the chicken !

I must say it is so refreshing to have an honest, mature discussion with "Grown-ups"....... I LOVE YOU'S GUY'S !!!!!!!!!!!

[FTJoe]

NICE... Keenan, I also love F.T. And would vote for him in a heartbeat.... We may again have a chance ! I think, now was not the time for him.... A true conservative is usually the one elected after a liberal regime, and visa versa..... History has proven that time and time again.

FTJoe, again, great points ! Call me a simpleton (My wife does !) but I try to make judgments based on what is to me obvious common sense (Again debatable with me !). Lets face it, you can show me articles and polls "Proving" your point ... And so can I ! The proof is always in the pudd'n. Corruption, Government and Business are synonymous. And that statement is even more true, with greater government power..... Name your favorite dictator ! So I guess what I'm saying is that, simply put, money and power breeds corruption... Always has, always will. So asking the government to save us from the evil bred is like asking the fox to guard the chicken coup ! Yes, we, the little guy suffer the consequences of "Their" actions ! Our only hope is that sometimes "We" can tell the difference between the fox and the chicken !

I must say it is so refreshing to have an honest, mature discussion with "Grown-ups"....... I LOVE YOU'S GUY'S !!!!!!!!!!!

I agree - my head spins when it comes to this stuff so I try to listen to somewhat impartial folks who I think understand it, see - simple ;-). As I think I just said in another post, probably too late now to put a finger in the dyke, lord know our lovable elected idiots/criminals will pretend to try.