Big Tobacco killing us?

[Taajsgpm]

I keep hearing that Biig Tobacco is going to squeeze us out of existence, pass laws , buy it up and erase vaping, the laws are already puttingus into the real smoker category , Do we have lobbiests?

[Christopher]

We do have CASSA which does a lot to help defend the community though they are not active on Vapor Talk at all unfortunately. (We've reached out to them a couple of times but have never heard a response)

[mcquinn]

Actually I kind of suspect if anything allows vaping to continue at all it will be "Big Tobacco" I am pretty sure to avoid past mistakes they investigated vaping pretty thoroughly before getting onboard . They must be pretty confident they can survive the legal and political attacks that are in the near future. I have noticed that health insurance companies have extended their language for tobacco use to include nicotine delivery devices.

[Earthling789]

I have noticed that health insurance companies have extended their language for tobacco use to include nicotine delivery devices.

Which further promotes hypocrisy... since the insurance companies don't consider patches or gum as a "nicotine delivery device", because they are backed by big-pharma! Sad, too, because Nicotine has been proven again and again to NOT be the addictive or damaging by-product of tobacco!

[Christopher]

I suspect while Big Tobacco will help keep e-cigarettes around, in the long run, it won't be as we know it now. Likely at some point in time it'll be pre measured cartridges (whatever form they'll take in the future) with various approved strengths. Flavored liquid will be a thing of the past as well as it "promotes vaping to the youth." My guess is we'll be limited to Menthol and tobacco based flavors.

If the FDA does push for pre filled cartridge regulations I can't actually see big name vendors putting up much of a fight as it's more profitable than selling in bulk the way most vendors do now. I can only speculate, but it's my theory.

So yes, Big Tobacco will help keep vaping legal, but not in the form we all know and love. I'm sure there will be some back wood brewing going on no doubt, but at least mainstream I don't believe we'll have the vast amount of selection we do now. The industry is still in it's wild wild west stage and eventually that'll end.

At any rate I'm not sure it's something we have to stress about too much, the government doesn't exactly get things done quickly. I believe most of these regulations are a ways out.

[mcquinn]

Iagree with that

[Bebop]

Surely there will be a market for more advanced vaping. Dont you think that Big Tobacco will support this? In the form of "sister" companies catering to this need? Otherwise I would expect a huge underground market. I just don't see how they can stop it. It's just too dang easy to produce your own gear and juice. The amount of regulation required to limit consumer purchase of hardware, ingredients, etc is mind boggling. They would have to redesign and trademark batteries etc. It's crazy. I'll take my dozen protanks and hobble along with what I have for years if necessary....they'll have to pry my vape from my cold dead hand, lol...

[aufin]

I could be way off base, but I can't imagine China just sitting back and doing nothing and allowing the e-cig business to get hammered into oblivion.. There's way too much money on China's side of this issue. Juice regulation I can forsee, but the equipment side is going to be quite an uphill battle.

[Christopher]

Well Believe it or not China actually makes most of it's Money in Europe at least E Liquid. Dekang for Example, arguably China's biggest e-liquid producers ships out more across Europe and a few select areas of the asian market (e-cigarettes are too expensive for most Chinese to purchase) than they do the states. The thing about China is they don't care what they sell, so long as it turns a profit. If electronic cigarettes were say completely banned, they' just drop shop, reorganize and start producing something else. I don't think it'd phase them all that much to be honest with you. The owners of these large companies have no issues taking their money, closing up the factory and moving onto the next thing. There are two guys at the top of Dekangs food chain and they're set for life.

@Bebop - If they can...maybe. But if regulation and the threat of fines outweighs the profit margins of producing advanced vaping gear, they'll do away with it. The same goes for all suppliers. While there are a few vendors that make some serious cash (a couple million gross per year) most vendors, I'd say a good chunk of them (I'm always chit chatting with vendors at conventions we attend, the last one in Arizona) make less than 10-15k a month. The thing is some of them still carry day jobs, if they're hit with a fine of say 50 or maybe 100k (pure speculation) it wouldn't take much to knock most of them out of business. Hell even the threat of a fine is enough for a few of these vendors to say "nope not worth it, it's be fun" The ones that have the big bucks will switch over to whatever the current regulatory requirements are. (I mean why not when most of your competition as been killed off by regulation. It's easy money at that point) In fact we all know if serious regulation does kick in? Most vendors will go away with the wind. It sucks because it's a win for a few and not for vapers. (This insane competition going on right now is great for buyers, it forces suppliers to get more creative, improve logistics etc all in an effort to compete. It's the way the free market works best)

The other question could be asked, if they were interested in advanced vaping why not market to that group now? Vuze, Blu, NJOY etc all pretty much stuck with the simple two piece units. I don't think personally they'll go the rough of catering to advanced vapers purely because of the liability that comes along with it. It wasn't long ago people were suing BT because cigarettes caused cancer. This year marked a high point for child poisoning by e-liquid in ER rooms. I'd be willing to bet with tanks and the likes being offered by BT that people would be happy to turn the finger on big tobacco and start suing. ("ugh my tank spilled, you should have made it safer etc etc...") Ironically creating the nanny market they probably once spoke against. They'll likely just avoid the hassle, especially given the fact their current model now which is a moderately safe method of delivery, makes them a ton of money.

As for underground vaping, you bet, it'll be around for quite some time. For example most members on this board will likely mix and home brew, in fact they'll probably use this forum to figure out how to do just that. (and at that point we'll do our best to keep the freedom of info flowing legally) but see the tricky part is getting the nicotine.

Right now there are a couple of ways to obtain nicotine. The most often used method is purchasing unflavored nicotine from a vendor here in the states or from China. (Sometimes the vendor here in the states does just that...orders from China) Once those seizures kick back in at the border (and boy do I remember those days) it'll be much harder to obtain Chinese unflavored nicotine base liquid or nicotine base from any country. (Philippines for example) I remember one year I lost so much stuff at the border I almost closed up shop. This alone would kill of quite a lot of vendors. Vapor Talk's prices used to be pretty sky high simply to cover the amount of product that was straight up destroyed in customs. (Vendors reading this who've been around for a while will remember the heart rates when checking their inbound tracking numbers. I wished I could share some of the ways we used to bring this stuff in lol)

Ok but we can get nicotine in the states right? Well right now it's not regulated all that well but you bet your *** if the FDA started knocking on the doors of companies like DOW stating you have to be licensed etc to purchase, it's going to be pretty hard to get what we all want. You can purchase Nic as a pesticide and break it down but eh.. you're starting to get into some gray area and you'd better hope the guy mixing your stuff knows what he's doing. But if they do succeed in clamping down on US companies distributing nicotine Then it doesn't matter how much hardware is available, what's the point? You're looking at shady dealings trying to get a hold of this stuff which honestly would shrink the DIY arena to a group of screw the government types that simply don't care. But I think the vast majority of users will simply give in and buy the regulated stuff.

Who knows though, the one thing I know about this country is that when American's are told they can't have something, they end up wanting it more purely as a middle finger to the government. But like anything else, it's risk reward. The greater the risk, the greater the penalty the more people will just say screw it and buy the crappy pre made cartridges or worse, go back to smoking.

It's still an interesting topic to talk about, something we're always chatting up at the office. The fact that we managed to get this far at all, honestly at times, is surprising. There was a time vaping was doomed, now it's likely just to be stifled a bit.

[Mplough]

Tobacco will never be outlawed. Too many politicians depend on the tax revenue. In my opinion the introduction of MarkTen by Altria through Phillips Morris speaks volumes of 'new' product avenues for them. My biggest concern is the tax on e-cig revenue that is coming once politicians finally realize that their coffers aren't as full due to 'reformed' smokers (like they aren't already) and the regulation that will certainly jack prices up.

Think of all the 'children' that smokers are saving via taxation, the government hates competition.

[WillBlack]

Well Believe it or not China actually makes most of it's Money in Europe at least E Liquid. Dekang for Example, arguably China's biggest e-liquid producers ships out more across Europe and a few select areas of the asian market (e-cigarettes are too expensive for most Chinese to purchase) than they do the states. The thing about China is they don't care what they sell, so long as it turns a profit...

And things are different in the US?

[Christopher]

And things are different in the US?

I think it goes without saying. I don't think it's much different anywhere you're located. But, his question specifically mentioned China which can survive well outside the e-cigarette market.

[Mplough]

Juice regulation I can forsee, but the equipment side is going to be quite an uphill battle.

Really? Have you heard of the Afforable Healthcare Act? One of its requirements is a tax on medical equipment to help pay for healthcare. Let E-cig get full FDA regulation and you can bet that the equipment side will get regulation via taxation much like the embeded sin tax in cigarettes and alcohol and soon to be BigMac tax for all of us fat asses that enjoy a cheeseburger.

[aufin]

This whole discussion is probably going to prove worthless in the future, anyway. I expect Big Tobacco will figure some way to demonize the Chinese products and "lobby" congress to force them out of the market so BT can keep on screwing everybody's brains out. The days of quitting tobacco with inexpencive entry level equipment are more than likely numbered.

I'm not going to even pretend to know the Chinese manufacturers'/suppliers' mindset, but I would imagine them to be every bit the capitalist as the next person and aren't going to be very happy about being pushed aside without a fight. I can't see them just tossing in the towel and saying "oh, well".

[bear]

There are some towns in Wisconsin that have banned vaping.

[Earthling789]

There are some towns in Wisconsin that have banned vaping.

Whole towns banning all vaping? Or, just local health dept's including vaping along with smoking bans in public places, such as bars, restaurants, public buildings, gov't buildings, etc.?

If I recall, the first, and only, town to attempt a total ban on all tobacco and vaping was in Massachusetts... and the proposal failed last month...

[Bebop]

Christopher

Thank you for your in-depth reply. Sorry I missed it after you originally wrote it. It's clear you guys in the back room have this pretty well thought out. The fact that vaping has come so far is indeed amazing especially since it changes so rapidly anyway. I guess the longer it takes for the govment to figure it all out the more we benefit but I can't help but feel a bit of sorrow for those smokers in the future who may find "regulated vaping" just as expensive as smoking and possibly just as ineffective as the gum and the patch - at least relatively speaking. Sometimes I feel I should get down on my knees and thank the vaping gods I found it when I did in this relatively brief little window when vaping is simple, inexpensive and effective. I owe the pioneers my life for this.

[jonnoh]

Christopher

 

Thank you for your in-depth reply. Sorry I missed it after you originally wrote it. It's clear you guys in the back room have this pretty well thought out. The fact that vaping has come so far is indeed amazing especially since it changes so rapidly anyway. I guess the longer it takes for the govment to figure it all out the more we benefit but I can't help but feel a bit of sorrow for those smokers in the future who may find "regulated vaping" just as expensive as smoking and possibly just as ineffective as the gum and the patch - at least relatively speaking. Sometimes I feel I should get down on my knees and thank the vaping gods I found it when I did in this relatively brief little window when vaping is simple, inexpensive and effective. I owe the pioneers my life for this.

Many times in life we find ourselves standing on the shoulders of giants.   I believe this is one. 

[FXRich]

All prohibition does is create a black market. In the 30s people didn't quit drinking they just found other ways to get it, the same will happen with vaping. Stock up now or pay high prices later.

[cesar]

All prohibition does is create a black market. In the 30s people didn't quit drinking they just found other ways to get it, the same will happen with vaping. Stock up now or pay high prices later.

I can't see that happen thought, they will have to ban each ingredient individually....PG, VG, Nicotine, and the artificial flavour. They " may " ban nicotine in e-liquids, but that won't stop vaping, as for nicotine isn't a necessary ingredient in e-liquid.... also... they won't ban pharmaceutical grade nicotine neither, for obvious reasons.

As for the Vaporizers, without the e-liquid they are just a device, a gadget, hard to see how they going to ban those...

[Adversarious1]

I can't see that happen thought, they will have to ban each ingredient individually....PG, VG, Nicotine, and the artificial flavour. They " may " ban nicotine in e-liquids, but that won't stop vaping, as for nicotine isn't a necessary ingredient in e-liquid.... also... they won't ban pharmaceutical grade nicotine neither, for obvious reasons.

As for the Vaporizers, without the e-liquid they are just a device, a gadget, hard to see how they going to ban those...

I can very easily seeing it going to a black maraket system just like prohibition in the United States in the 1920's.  I speak to a number of people almost daily, certainly weekly, who are already prepared to obtain the ingredients to make their own e-liquids should e-liquids and refillable tanks be banned.  I'm prepared to do the same.  This is the first method I have tried that successfully kept me off of analogs and I'll be damned if I'm going to go back to supporting Big tobacco in any method.

I know this is an older thread, but since it has been resurrected, there are some other things I think lobbying/advocacy related some members may not be aware of.

I saw a comment regarding lobbyists, CASAA and CASAA not having a presence here on the forum.  We may not have an actual CASAA presence, but we do have CASAA members.  I think Comp is a CASAA member (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).  I'm a CASAA member.  There may be other CASAA members.  I certainly won't speak for any other VT members who may be also be CASAA members, but for me, any member with a legitimate advocacy idea is more than welcome to PM or message me and I'll do what I can to get those ideas out there.  I mostly use social media in the form of Instagram and occasionally Facebook, but just this past week I registered a web domain name and have secured web hosting for an advocacy website...not lobbying, just advocacy.  Now I just need to start building the site.

In addition to CASAA, there is also the AVA (American Vaping Association), The Vaping Militia and Not Blowing Smoke who are dedicated to vape advocacy and vapers' rights, small businesses and even lobbying to an extent.  Not Blowing Smoke was originally formed as a reaction to California's "Still Blowing Smoke" campaign, but I they are doing what they can to take their message and provide support nationally.  CASAA shares a lot of "Calls to Action" for each state and the FDA, but I think their primary focus is on the FDA.  The AVA has interests on both a state and federal level. 

In addition to those groups dedicated to vapers' rights, there is SFATA, the Smoke-Free Alternatives Trade Association.  They represent manufacturers of devices, e-liquids, distributors, B&M's and to an extent, consumers.  There is also AEMSA, the American E-liquid Manufacturing Standards Association.

[aufin]

Bumping an old thread. Topic parallels ..... kinda.  Not sure if I'm totally onboard with the idea, but I can't come up with any good reasons to be against it.   Something to think about.  Could be interesting.

http://www.electroniccigaretteconsumerreviews.com/the-politics-of-vaping-should-be-a-2016-issue/