DIACETYL CONVO!

[Bebop]

Wow. Okay. New game here. Im a little alarmed but not freaking out yet.....

[bcartervol98]

A local shop posted on their Facebook page that a liquid line called " Tasty Troll" had voluntarily closed and would no longer operate after analyzing their liquids and finding the presence of Diacetyl.

Then they posted a pic of a customer that has bought the rest of their stock.

[Compenstine]

I will be getting a hold of my flavoring suppliers and get what info I can. In the mean time I'm going through all my liquids and posting what I find in each description so that Vaper can decide including the MSDS on each. . As I find any that do have unacceptable levels, they will be taken off the site until I can find a flavoring without either of these two chems.

[Bebop]

Okay. I have now listened to the entire interview with the doctor who has done this recent chemical analysis. I'm tired right now but tomorrow I am going to retread what I wrote earlier and then retract some of my statements as this is new information right from the horses mouth.

It's not as horrible as it could be and it certainly will only help vaping in the future. I'm not ready to go and jump off a building yet, lol but it's bad. And worthy of fresh discussion. But not tonight. I'm wasted.

[hookahhighness]

i knew this was important and being educated even more cant hurt cuz when the FDA and who ever else comes acros this it could have some type of blow back and we as a vaping community need to be able to respond correctly, thats why i started this was to get our input and make vaping safe as possible for us. i know i have more digging to do we all do. i love vaping and if i have to ill go un-flavored but i need more info on this, i feel we all do/

[Bushwick]

You're right, Bebop. It's bad, but not as bad as it's being made to seem. While it's a valid concern and something that we need to keep in mind, it's not at the point of disaster. I gladly throw that link around (now that I've found it), because it's something we need to think about. You're also right, Hookah. We need to get educated. While it may not be THAT bad, it can't hurt us to be educated and ready to address whatever issue that any government will throw at us. Whether it's on a state, city, or federal level.

[Bebop]

Okay. After reopening research into this I have to say this subject is definitely still valid.

Earlier statements I made implying this is a non issue and largely dealt with by modern juice manufacturing are not exactly true.

Apparently an independent chemical analysis was recently done on 159 different popular juices and a little less than half of them tested positive for higher than safe levels of diacetyl and a cousin to diacetyl, acetyl propoinyl (essentially the same thing as diacetyl).

The researchers who did the testing are not releasing the amounts found and the names of the juice makers as they think it unfairly targets manufacturers and leaves those untested juices with presumably a clean bill which is not the case. Their purpose was to alert the juice industry to get in to action to test flavors used to create juices. It can be assumed that this will occur over time.

Now before we create mass hysteria and witch hunts, I propose we move this thread to "Health & Safety"

This is not good news but it is not devastating. More will be coming out about this. Let's move this thread off the main line and put it where it belongs and continue to discuss

Mike

[Bushwick]

I had planned to make a thread in the "Health & Safety" forum that contained a link to this Soundcloud, and also a link to Dr. Farsalinos' website. That way we have easy access to the site and to all of the studies he has done.

[Jeffb]

Okay. After reopening research into this I have to say this subject is definitely still valid.

Earlier statements I made implying this is a non issue and largely dealt with by modern juice manufacturing are not exactly true.

Apparently an independent chemical analysis was recently done on 159 different popular juices and a little less than half of them tested positive for higher than safe levels of diacetyl and a cousin to diacetyl, acetyl propoinyl (essentially the same thing as diacetyl).

The researchers who did the testing are not releasing the amounts found and the names of the juice makers as they think it unfairly targets manufacturers and leaves those untested juices with presumably a clean bill which is not the case. Their purpose was to alert the juice industry to get in to action to test flavors used to create juices. It can be assumed that this will occur over time.

Now before we create mass hysteria and witch hunts, I propose we move this thread to "Health & Safety"

This is not good news but it is not devastating. More will be coming out about this. Let's move this thread off the main line and put it where it belongs and continue to discuss

Mike

Dont tell me what to do

[Bebop]

*ducks ban hammer*

[Tam]

Dont tell me what to do

Bebop "purposed" nicely.

[Bebop]

I copied the following from an original post by an ejuice vendor who I believe has succinctly stated the current scene with flavor manufacturers. I have spent numerous hours reading up on this. My own opinion after reading about this scene is that in general ejuice manufacturers have relied on "word of mouth" from flavor makers as to the contents of their flavors without actual testing. Even so, the threat of diacetyl is well below actual smoking. The point of addressing diacetyl is that it is an avoidable risk by using juices that do not contain it. Bottom line, at this time, is that some vendors will be able to produce documentation that shows a lower risk (Material Safety Data Sheets - MSDS on flavor ingredients) but many who make the claim of "diacetyl free" cannot back it up and the only guarantee is testing which hasn't been done yet on any large scale. As always, you vape at your own risk. - Bebop

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"The main issue is that vendors (of e-liquid) take [flavor] manufacturers at their word with zero test results to prove otherwise. For those that use FlavourArt and The Flavor Apprentice, this really shouldn't be an issue as they both provide details. TFA even provides MSDS's and CAS #'s and from what Linda has repeatedly told me, their manufacturer isn't even allowed to have Diacetyl in their factory due to insurance restrictions, so if Diacetyl is present, the resulting trace amounts have catalyzed from Acetoin, even though she has also stated that it's unlikely once a flavor is mixed.

When it comes to flavors from LorAnn, Capella, FlavorWest, Fairies Finest and other select flavor providers / vendors, you're pretty much SOL as they either make a blanket statement or they won't say anything / provide proof. With these vendors, you either have to test or make a blanket statement stating that the e-liquids sold may contain X, Y, Z (better than saying nothing, or making a broad claim that you can't backup).

Hangsen & Inawera are iffy. They claim Diacetyl free (via e-mail - I've been in touch with them both), though there are flavors from both that I feel contain Diacetyl or, at the very least, Acetoin and/or Acetyl Propionyl. I did receive a report on Hangsen Vanilla, which is one that I was the most iffy on based on taste, but the report which listed the chemicals didn't indicate the presence of any of the 3; not even butyric acid which is one of the newer chemicals to surface that's being used in place of D-A-AP (which, IMO, is equally as bad if you're going to compare it - just take a look at the description of the chemical).

FlavorWest, IMO, is the biggest offender and many companies use them from what has been said. Their butterscotch flavor was one of the flavors tested by a Canadian vendor only to find that Diacetyl-Free actually meant more Diacetyl than most other flavors on the market that still contain it, which was a bit shocking."

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[hookahhighness]

just was curious if ne one found out new info

[Bebop]

Nothing new to be found until actual testing of liquids occurs by private parties or vendors.

The main controversy

Is Diacetyl (and relevant variations) even as bad as is projected. Some of the numbers don't add up. The number of cases of "popcorn lung" don t add up even when taking in to consideration the general smoking population and diacetyl exposure in general. There is not full agreement about its risks although it is a known to cause disease. It's simply not fully researched.

[Compenstine]

I use FTA exclusively except for the Birthday cake. That uses Flavor West so that is the first one on my list to be tested. TFA seems to be on top of it and that is good that they are taking the steps to test their product. I was not happy to see Flavor Wests sweep it under the rug attitude from Bebops earlier post.

[EvanR]

Some companies such as Flavor West like putting labels such as "Diacetyl-free" on their flavorings, but since their flavors are not only meant for ecigs and are sometimes used in candies and such, what they really mean is "safe for consumption" but not necessarily inhalation. In other words, the amount of Diacetyl contained in their flavorings are insignificant if you're eating it, which is why they mark it "Diacetyl-free." However, since the effects on the lungs from inhalation of Diacetyl in ecigs is still largely an uncharted territory, the potential detriments have yet to be discovered/quantified. In addition, although the quantities are seemingly miniscule enough to not trigger terror and paranoia in most folk, the overall safety of ecigs in conjunction with formaldehyde production, Diacetyl, Acetyl-propionyl, and Acetoin, has yet to be determined in any publicly understandable or known way. Whatever the case may be, I believe the logical conclusion is that nonetheless, electronic cigarettes are leagues safer than analogs, and these little-understood studies should not inhibit someone's desire to quit cigarettes in fear that they're moving on to a more dangerous alternative. That is simply not the case.

On another note, what's up, guys?! My name is Evan and I've been working here for a few months now. I have been vaping for 5 years and I am excited to be a part of this community.

[Bushwick]

Welcome, Evan!

[Tam]

On another note, what's up, guys?! My name is Evan and I've been working here for a few months now. I have been vaping for 5 years and I am excited to be a part of this community.

Welcome to the forum, Evan! I'll be bothering you from time to time. Just wanted to give you the warning.

[EvanR]

I'm looking forward to it!

[Compenstine]

I contacted TFA about testing and here was my response, all be it short, it is good news.

Question:

I really appreciate all TFA is doing to provide information on it's products in the form of the MSDS and the Components Lists that are provided. Are there any plans in the future to provide test results for any Natural Occurring Diacetyl or other natural occurring elements in your flavorings? I think doing this would be a great benefit to TFA's already strong commitment to providing information about your products.

Answer:

"We absolutely have plans to include diacetyl in our components list tests! we're still working on detecting diacetyl with enough certainty...it's tricky, since it looks so much like acetoin in any chemical scan."

This is why I like TFA they are really stepping up to the plate for providing information about the products they sell.

[joejoevapekins]

That's a company setting the standard. Wish more would do this