regal Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Its very obvious to me that this industry is soon to be shut down by the FDA, its not a matter of if but when. I understand certain topics are off-limits but I believe the community (vendors included) need to start preparing to go underground. We are in exactly the same place in the eyes of the government as the bath salts industry was in a couple years ago. We will wake up one day and all our vendors will be gone. The one thing in favor for us vs the bath salts craze is vaping is a healthy alternative to smoking, however it wasn't developed by big business and therefore will be killed by big government. I wanted to start the discussion by talking about natural tobacco aditives like Macerated Nets. Where can you find info on buying these and does anyone share recipes for their use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 A lot of juice vendors use mascerated NETS Vaperite is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regal Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 A lot of juice vendors use mascerated NETS Vaperite is my favorite Yep Vaperite is my favorite too. I hate to be a Debby Downer but companies like this will be closed down by the FDA at some point. What surprises me about macerated NETS is the volume used, something like 25%, is that right. Going full DIY is going to be a challenge and I see that their is a sub forum for the technical aspects , this thread I wanted to start as a network and a look at obstacle's when D-Day comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 There is WTA (Whole Tobacco Alkaloids) as well. Tobacco Extract is another option https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D3qFnk-Hqk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Juice will still be available, it may be black market but vapers are very resourceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 The only thing that may become hard to get is the NIC solutions. Then it may be time to just go -0- nic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regal Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 Juice will still be available, it may be black market but vapers are very resourceful. I agree we are resourceful but the sooner we start planning the better. The is enough 1000mg/L liquid nic available if you know where to look to build a lifetime supply. As far as WTA I just ordered from Aroma one of their products I haven't tried this yet. But I don't think you can DIY a WTA like you can macerated nets. I guess part of the point of the thread is prepare for the worse because the whole industry can have to go underground. I just don't see Phillip-Morrris and the like or the FDA allowing this cottage industry to continue. I tried to quit smoking for 25 years and never could go more than a day. I've been off combustibles now since good Friday, and its easy I enjoy my SVD and VTR more than cigarettes. I don't see the Chinese quitting producing these for a while. The Aspire and Roo tanks would be the first thing to go so may need to look into RTA's. But I think the hardware will be around a while, its the quality e-juice that I worry about. Imagine if it was taxed like cigarettes. $10 bottles would be $50. But I think an outright ban is more likely, too many new small companies to regulate. There is just tooo much big money at risk For the cigarette industry to allow vaping to continue, mark my words it willll be demonized as murdering people when the FDA starts their propaganda compaings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regal Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 For those interested in stockpile high quality Maserated Nets after the ban and don't want to DIY, I found a company Quic Nic Juice that sells macerated nets in semi bulk (well largest volume I've seen of the nets companies.) I am focusing in on the maserated niets befause they will probably obviously be the first to go. If we are lucky when this is all said and done are only legal choiced will be FDA approved bland generic flood flavoring vapes (that generally suck.) Folks I know right know its hard to imagine that you won't be able to place your monthly highbrow (example) order but the hammer is coming down. We are going to have to be resourceful and move to the dark web to get quality e-juice, and it will be expensive unless from abroad. I've seen cottage internet industries like this closed up by the gvt too many time, it feels like having your legs macheted off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 I hope you are also helping to fight this because that is what we should be doing. I'm not saying that thinking ahead is not a good idea, I think that everyone should follow CASAA and add their voice to what is going on with the FDA regulations. Our best hope to fight this is by the masses adding their voice. There will be some regulation that is inevitable, but it needs to done in a way that is not handing over the industry to Big Tobacco and Big Pharma in effect putting almost every small E-Cigarette business out of business. I have already started plans for what I will do in the event that things happen in a bad way and doesn't include supporting a black market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regal Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) I've been a chemical engineer 25 years, I've worked in pharmaceuticals even did a stint at phillip morris as a flavoring formulations chemist (brief). Its good to put up a fight and I commend, but in this day in age a good DA can prosecute and any American citizen as a felon, that's the way the laws are written so convoluted that they can put anyone in jail they want. You are obviously more optimistic than me. We are inhaling non FDA approved products, there is no way this will continue fly without a Pfizer, Merck or other big name on it, possible OTC P&G. Either way they will not be of the quality we are used to and cost 10x as much. Underground/dark market will be the only way to keep the ball rolling IMHO. This is of course all hypothetical but its time to start preparing today. Now share your plan that doesn't involve going underground, the whole idea of this thread is to put together a plan while we can still talk about it. The idea is to keep people out of jail in the future while still enjoying the same pursuit of happiness we have today. And most of all this thread is not meant to be adversarial, team work is what we need to get thru whats going to happen. Edited May 16, 2014 by regal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Sorry but No, I will not share my business plan on this board. If you want to ignore that your voice would/could help that is up to you. Just saying that every voice counts. This is not a case where we are vaping Non FDA approved ingredients. There is not one ingredient in my juice and the majority of Juice makers that is not FDA approved already. This is a case of Big Tobacco, Phrama and Government throwing their weight around because this industry is cutting into their bottom dollar and they want control over it. They have shown that they are not above lying and over exaggerating reports to get their way. No one is talking about people going to Jail here. With all do respect, I think your a little over the top with some assumptions here. Adversarial... what? CASAA? CASAA is a non profit advocate for the E-Cigarette industry that is made up of lawyers and others fighting the FDA on the front lines. Please before you start throwing out accusations here, you need to do some research into what is going on here. You speak as if you have already thrown in the towel on this and that is your choice. I chose to fight tooth an nail for every vaper, my business, and every other small business that will/could be affected by this. I don't think calling for a black market is a helpful approach at this time and that is my opinion. This same thing happened during prohibition and many people died from tainted alcohol. There needs to be regulation and not a single person/business would disagree with that. What needs to fought for is a fair playing field that will not cripple this industry creating job loss and putting 90% of the E-Cigarette industry out of business. This would in effect hand it over to Big Tobacco and Big Pharma on a FDA silver platter. Tam and BirdDog 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regal Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) You make good points but my small business owner neighbhor ran a convenience chain store and went to jail behind bath salts just last year in a "DEA" raid. Same thing will happen with ejuice. "Its poison, kids are drinking it and dying, etc, etc." I agree with many of your statements but none of these ingredients are FDA approved for inhalation by steam, which means they are not FDA approved for our intended use. If you don't care to help that is your propagative but the way big business and big government keep winning is by dividing and conquering our freedom. I keep an open mind and try to understand everyone's perspective. AND I will make a statement that within 5 years people will go to jail behind purely "kosher" e-juice, don't take this as an insult but I believe you are a tad bit naïve or young. Just and example LSD was once legal and used by some of the greatest minds in history, now a gram carries a life sentence . I'm not arguing for the legalization of LSD but it has never killed anyone just an example of how quickly things can change legally. I could fill a page of fascist move's made by our government since the civil war. But the intention of this thread is not conflict but to be constructive and prepare for the worse. Cheeers Edited May 17, 2014 by regal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdDog Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) You really need to shut up now. You are are breaking forum rules by mentioning illegal drugs. One more comparison of vaping and illegal substances and you will be banned. Edited May 17, 2014 by BirdDog Compenstine, Aquatroy and Tam 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatroy Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Mtdobies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcartervol98 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Nicotine is already legal. It may be regulated beyond what we like but will remain legal and accessible. The comparisons you made show a level of paranoia that is near the top of the scale of anything I have ever seen on this or other forums and I think you might should explore that. I am not trying to be mean, just being serious with you. This is nothing but a money grab. Will Vaping get more expensive in the future? Yes. Will flavors and marketing be regulated at some point? Yes, but there will always be a workaround imo. The thing being missed is nicotine is an FDA approved product. Food Grade Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin are FDA approved. Food flavorings are already FDA approved. Every product that goes into an e-cig is on its on merit an approved product. The biggest problem is the hole being cut in the wallets of big tobacco. If there were ANY credible studies to show vaping to be anywhere near as harmful as smoking they would have already published studies with merit. To date only opinions and a bunch of "I don't knows" have been the result. Once the tobacco companies get full fledged into the industry i suspect the news and studies will amazingly turn positive. You cannot effectively ban something that is already legal and approved for other uses without a solid reason backed in science. Compenstine, Mtdobies and BirdDog 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regal Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 So want to you guys want to do just sit back and watch big daddy tax our e-juice out of business ? If you don't think drastic changes are in motion for our hobby you need to get out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcartervol98 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 So want to you guys want to do just sit back and watch big daddy tax our e-juice out of business ? If you don't think drastic changes are in motion for our hobby you need to get out more. Drastic changes are in motion on a lot of things, but many are common sense regulations. We all knew this was coming. CASAA is doing everything it can. Your best bet is to donate $$$ there because they are our strongest ally much like the NRA is to gun owners. I am a member and contributor to both. Mtdobies and Joshuab3687 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regal Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Thanks I checked their website and it does have some positives, but I guess I am going to learn DIY as much as possible I think that's the best recourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcartervol98 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Thanks I checked their website and it does have some positives, but I guess I am going to learn DIY as much as possible I think that's the best recourse. If thats what works for you then I say go for it. Personally I will DIY if I am ever forced to which I think will be never. Mtdobies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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