MadFlavors Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 First time poster here. I have 100mg nic based in PG. I was trying to run the calculator to get a 50/50 mix but cant come up with any way to do it without going into negative territory. So how would I do the following: 100mg nic pg 4 flavors all of which are pg vg 100% and end up with 18mg 50/50? Is there a calc that can account for the base in flavorings and if I add say 120% vg to the mix to balance the 50/50 how would I get to that magic 18 number? Or should I just go back and get 100mg in 50/50 or 100mg in 100%vg and call it a day? Even then I still would have to adjust for the pg in the flavors and there seems to be no calc for that. The company does not disclose amounts either so that is no help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 First you need VG base no nic and PG no nic base, Second try LiqMix calculator you can substitute your vg flavoring on the base side. This will throw the flavoring % off, but for DIY it's not a big deal, taste is what matters. It can go down to .5ml on the base side and will help you dial in the 50/50 you want. With the no nic VG base you make your own 50/50 nic at 50%. I have about 8 different strength nic bases to work with at 50/50. Make your base at 20-24mg then add the flavor. That way you are not diluting your flavorings. Adding Flavorings will drop the nic down to 18mg like you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thank you for your help. Starting with 1 liter of 100mg nic in pg: Am I correct to think that 100mg nic pg contains 10% pure nic and 90% pg so that to get a 50/50 pg/vg base I would need to add 90% of 1 liter of vg to the existing nic volume? And that that addition would yield 50mg nic in the base? If that is true then I would want to add another proportion of clean 50/50 to cut that down to 24mg correct? That portion escapes me. I think it would mean 52% of 1 liter each? bringing the total to Just over 3 liters. And aside from all that: The flavors themselves will have pg as well increasing the need for vg to balance that out also right? I have searched and searched the web for any professional mixing techniques and come up dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 We don't like to give up our secrets *Incert evil laugh. If you mix 25ml of 100mg PG Nic to 25ml off pure VG (No Nicotine) you would get 50ml of 50/50 at 50mg nic mix. That is going by the standards of the mixing that done with e-liquid. As far cutting it further, to make it simple if you take that new mix at 50ml 50mg nic 50pg/50vg Add: 25ml VG (no nic) 25 ml of PG (no nic) you would end up with 100ml of 25mg nic at 50/50. Though your correct in that it would not be a "True" 50/50 mix, the amount of nic is so small that it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 I appreciate that. Personally close enough is not what I am seeking. Maybe this discussion could evolve into actual number crunching. I do not think there are industry standards at such an early industry stage, but please correct me if I am wrong. Is there published industry standard mixing data that I have somehow overlooked? It kinda makes me pause a bit to think that a professional retail shop could be mixing things as loose as a 10+- error of margin when dealing with nic. Or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 "If you mix 25ml of 100mg PG Nic to 25ml off pure VG (No Nicotine) you would get 50ml of 50/50 at 50mg nic mix" by my math you would get 22.5ml of pg pure, 25 ml of vg pure and 2.5ml of 100mg nic resulting in a nic level of 47.5% which is a 2.5% deviation which if following this loose course could result in a wider margin of error in the finished product. Thankfully to the negative. So if labeling a product one would want to tighten the math a bunch especially if one found himself in a legal situation. My goal with my original post is to get right down to some real hard numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I trust what my nic test kit shows. I use a test kit and know what % nic I use. MadFlavors and Dreadnought Vapors 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 I am in 100% agreement with testing what you receive from the vendor initially. After some research I found out that all nic is produced in China (more or less) and that there is only one company that is "going" to be producing it in the USA at some to be determined time in the future at what will certainly be a premium markup that no one will willingly pay from a production point of view and in the end they will likely use their new found monopoly to exclude smaller operations. So to do it right, we have to test the nic strength. One could take this even further and get the equipment to make sure that the nic is even what they say it is and what impurities exist and match that data to their certificates. Funny how some companies publish on their websites that their nic is sourced from the USA. Well it technically is since the distributor has a location in the states. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 US made nicotine. http://www.rtsvapes.com/Flavorless_Liquid_Nicotine_s/42.htm Compenstine and Tam 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compenstine Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Know your source www.wizardlabs.us Tam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 I am 100% certain neither of those are made in the USA. It says sourced in the USA which means the distributor is in the USA, not the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proetus Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) All of our Nicotine solutions are made onsite at our FDA registered facility in South Florida, USA, using only the highest quality USP grade ingredients. The nicotine base used exclusively in Wizard Labs line of solutions undergoes extraction 5-6 times per year in partnership with one of the providing labs for Johnson & Johnson's global line of nicotine products to assure chemical purity, quality control, and reliability. Wizard Labs nicotine solutions contain no preservatives or chemical additives. I'm not sure how much more made in the USA it gets then this, which came right from wizard labs site. I'm 100% certain you are quite uninformed. Edited February 12, 2014 by Proetus spydre and Tam 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydre Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I am in 100% agreement with testing what you receive from the vendor initially. After some research I found out that all nic is produced in China (more or less) and that there is only one company that is "going" to be producing it in the USA at some to be determined time in the future at what will certainly be a premium markup that no one will willingly pay from a production point of view and in the end they will likely use their new found monopoly to exclude smaller operations. So to do it right, we have to test the nic strength. One could take this even further and get the equipment to make sure that the nic is even what they say it is and what impurities exist and match that data to their certificates. Funny how some companies publish on their websites that their nic is sourced from the USA. Well it technically is since the distributor has a location in the states. lol. Comp isn't using a test machine to test things he orders.....he's been doing the DIY thing for YEARS, and has opened his own online shop. So obviously, he has to know how to get to the target nic level and the percentages, and he has to test every order he makes - and he fine tunes PG/VG ratio finer than any other vendor I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Actually he just told me that he does not actually fine tune anything and that he gets "close enough" and that he checks the work using a test kit. Which is great and I do not care one way or the other. But I am wanting to create more exact math. I am pretty sure he would no go through the trouble to test everything he makes. More likely he tests the nicotine in bulk at the start before mixing anything. That is what I would do. Testing small batches would be way too time consuming and expensive. But he can let me know I guess. I hate being the new guy on a forum. I am not intending to stir up anything. I just want to talk about the math involved on this thread. "I'm 100% certain you are quite uninformed. " Not actually. Let me prove it out to you: First off this is the first and only existing company that WILL BE selling USA made pure nicotine and they are not yet open for business: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/universal-corporation-announces-joint-venture-to-produce-liquid-nicotine-2013-08-06 Secondly Wizard Labs uses clever wording to disguise the source of their nicotine. I am pretty certain I know where they buy from, but I am not going to talk about it publicly. From their site: "All Wizard Labs liquid nicotine solutions and concentrated flavorings are produced using only the highest quality USP grade, and/or FDA approved ingedients for your safety and peace of mind." Notice they use the word solutions. This means that there is more than one ingredient. The actual definition is :a homogeneous, molecular mixture of two or more substances. So right there that tells me they are not extracting anything from leaves in Florida. They are just making solutions in Florida. Further reading: The nicotine base used exclusively in Wizard Labs line of solutions undergoes extraction 5-6 times per year in partnership with one of the providing labs to Johnson & Johnson's global line of NRT products for the assurance of chemical purity, quality control, and reliability. Notice they say the word "global". Right here they admit to not extracting anything themselves, but that they get it from some unmentioned supplier who also happens to supply nicotine to Johnson and Johnson. I am actually not sure why they even mention Johnson and Johnson because that has nothing to do with anything. If you have some more data to counter this with I am certainly open to it. . Edited February 13, 2014 by MadFlavors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 This supplier claims to have USA extracted nic http://www.virginvapor.com/pages/about-us# 100% USA E-liquid. None of our ingredients come from China. Our nicotine is extracted in the USA and our organically flavored e-liquids contain no artificial ingredients or additives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 As does this one http://www.provape.com/premium-ecigarette-liquid-s/44.htm# Ingredients: Nicotine extracted in the USA from tobacco grown in the USA USP Grade Propylene Glycol USP Grade Glycerine All flavorings are FDA approved No additional water or colors addedBottles do not contain Bisphenol A (BPA Free) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckyon Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Horse to water... You can't tell someone who is "always right" they are wrong, no matter how much proof exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 Well I am still researching and I still stand my ground on this. Its not that I have to be right, its that I would love to be wrong and then locate this mysterious non existent supplier and then purchase from them. What I am finding is that the companies are hiding the truth and its a tough thing because as soon as one comes clean they lose business to the ones still covering this truth up. If there was available USA extracted nicotine why would a major industry association be saying the opposite? http://blog.casaa.org/2013/08/us-extracted-nicotine-will-soon-be.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/523550-us-extracted-nicotine-way.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You are the one making the claim that these suppliers are lying. The burden of proof lies on you to disprove their claims. Until then its just a theory with no merit. Tam and spydre 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 That is a very common response all over the internet forums when people like me discover the same thing. So what, would I have to literally sue a few companies and take them into discovery to get an answer to such a simple question? Its not the proprietary recipe to coca cola we are talking about here. Its that no one can name a single USA supplier because they don't exist. There is no such thing as a secret supplier that these companies are trying to protect from others buying from them. Any company doing the extraction in the states would be highly visible due to having permits of all sorts. They would be EPA and FDA regulated and licensed and probably have ISO certifications as well which would all be public data. They would also be marketing the product industry wide picking off easy Asian and Indian competition with a superior product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deckyon Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 So go find the proof. If what you say is true, there would be no need to sue them if everything was public record... get a new ******* horse, cause this one is dead. spydre 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydre Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 So go find the proof. If what you say is true, there would be no need to sue them if everything was public record... get a new ******* horse, cause this one is dead. True. Also, if incorrect, your um, assertations, is that the right word? Could border on libel or slander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadFlavors Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 Im not picking on any one company here. I am saying this magic nic company does not exist. Its a very general thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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