Rebuilding/rewicking coils and what to use

[Tam]

Since I was way off topic in a different thread I moved it over here to discuss rebuilding coils and what materials to use.

What I'm interested in is the difference between traditional round wire versus a ribbon wire. Also, what size ribbon should I get? What's comparable to a 32 gauge?

I'll be ordering 32 gauge to redo my coils for the Davide minis but need to get smaller wire for my RBA Eternity. 34 gauge seems to be the smallest I'm finding so far. Anyone know where to get a Kanthal 36 or 38 gauge? Do they even sell them that small?

Thanks in advance for any and all answers, even new questions are welcome.

[IMEDICx90]

Well tam you have come to the right place!

I have used nichrome, flat ribbon, regular a-1 kanthal, AWG kanthal and a few others i cant seem to remember since i didnt like them.

Nichrome wire it nice but its really really expensive, and its not any better then kanthal vapor production wise... but its easier to use. I however nixed the nichrome all together and decided to stick with kanthal.

now between regular kanthal and flat ribbon there are a few pro's and a few cons.

Kanthal

PRO'S:

-easy to acquire and easily used to build coils

-fairly decent vapor production depending on the use

-GREAT for microcoil's or nano coils

CONS:

-compared to flat ribbon in a standard wrap you lose vapor production

-very springy

-hard to keep track of sometimes when you set it down

-prone to hot spots on SS mesh if your not careful about trimming or oxidizing the wire and the mesh

FLAT RIBBON KANTHAL

PRO:

-AWESOME vapor production

-Heats up quicker then kanthal in almost all scenarios

-retains more heat so it will fire quicker after initial warm up then standard kanthal.

-Hardly ever is there a hotspot on SS mesh do to the fact the surface area is greater and is more accepting to minor fines coming off the mesh if it isnt oxidized

CONS:

-harder then regular kanthal to work with

-harder to fit into the posts to get it tightened down properly

-NOT a good use for microcoils do to the fact that it always wants to coil underneath itself when being pressed together

-not recommended by me for a brand new coil builder.

As far as size tam the rule is the bigger the gauge of wire the higher the number. So for something like 30g is perfect for protank builds, you can use something higher in gauge but i wouldnt recommend it. For your vision eternity with those weird posts that clamp onto it you could use the 30g but i generally use something around 27 to 29g kanthal.

If you go to Temco's site there is actually a chart for the conversion of flat ribbon to regular kanthal here is is:

Thickness x Width Feet per Pound Resistance
ohms/ft. @ 68°F Equivalent Round Wire Millimeters Inches AWG Ohms/ft. @ 68°F 0.4 x 0.1 0.0157 x 0.004 5618 11.4 32 13.1 0.5 x 0.1 0.0197 x 0.004 4444 9.2 31 10.6 0.6 x 0.1 0.0236 x 0.004 3690 7.68 30 8.36 0.7 x 0.1 0.0276 x 0.004 3236 6.58 29 6.55 0.8 x 0.1 0.0315 x 0.004 2809 5.76 28 5.27 0.9 x 0.1 0.0354 x 0.004 2481 5.12 27 4.15
Thickness x Width Spool Increment Millimeters Inches 25 ft. 50 ft. 100 ft. 250 ft. 500 ft. 1000 ft. 8 oz. 1 lb. 0.4 x 0.1 0.0157 x 0.004 RW0314 RW0315 RW0316 RW0317 RW0318 RW0319 RW0320 RW0321 0.5 x 0.1 0.0197 x 0.004 RW0322 RW0323 RW0324 RW0325 RW0326 RW0327 RW0328 RW0329 0.6 x 0.1 0.0236 x 0.004 RW0330 RW0331 RW0332 RW0333 RW0334 RW0335 RW0336 RW0337 0.7 x 0.1 0.0276 x 0.004 RW0338 RW0339 RW0340 RW0341 RW0342 - RW0343 RW0344 0.8 x 0.1 0.0315 x 0.004 RW0345 RW0346 RW0347 RW0348 RW0349 - RW0350 RW0351 0.9 x 0.1 0.0354 x 0.004 RW0352 RW0353 RW0354 RW0355 RW0356 - RW0357 RW0358

hopefully that helps you a bit. is there anything im not clear on? i tried to make it short and to the point but i also didnt want to leave anything out.

[Tam]

Thanks for all the information, Medic! I really appreciate you taking the time to write one out that's so comprehensive.

I do want to make one correction, though.

The bigger the number on the gauge, the smaller the size of wire. This would mean that the 27 or 30 gauge wire is bigger around (diameter) than the 32 gauge I'll be getting for the KPT coils.

ETA: Now I'm starting to second guess what I thought I knew. Is the measurement of gauge different with the type of wire that's used in rebuilding coils? I was always taught that bigger gauge = smaller wire diameter. Now I'm all confused.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Tameiki

[Bebop]

As far as size tam the rule is the bigger the gauge of wire the higher the number. So for something like 30g is perfect for protank builds, you can use something higher in gauge but i wouldnt recommend it. For your vision eternity with those weird posts that clamp onto it you could use the 30g but i generally use something around 27 or 29

Hi Medic

I don't understand something about this. Can you expand on this part?

[IMEDICx90]

well so far my 28 gauge wire is actually thinner then my 30 gauge wire. So it would stand to reason that the thinner the wire the lest resistance offered, so the lower the resistance the lower the gauge. That make any sense?

and what do you need me to explain bebop? LOL thats a pretty broad category there sir.

[Tam]

well so far my 28 gauge wire is actually thinner then my 30 gauge wire. So it would stand to reason that the thinner the wire the lest resistance offered, so the lower the resistance the lower the gauge. That make any sense?

and what do you need me to explain bebop? LOL thats a pretty broad category there sir.

Good to know. I'll go with a lower gauge wire along with the 32 gauge for the KPT coils. Thanks for the clarification, Medic.

[Bebop]

Sorry. I got confused on wire gauge as well

The steel industry uses different definitions of "gauge" than the American Wire Gauge (AWG). This is Tam's confusion as well

In your case the gauge number increases as wire thickness increases

That is the opposite of the AWG system were thickness decreases with a higher AWG number.

But, also, when you say 30 gauge is perfect for pro tank rebuild - are you referring to resistance? Or physical size? What makes that gauge perfect? Or what is the theory on choosing wire gauge depending on the device?

[IMEDICx90]

well i myself like subohms... but i also like micro coils... i find that the 27-29 is the easiest to wrap a micro with and that i can put a few more wraps on it to increase the surface area.

here is a build of 28g dual micro with metering out at a .8 ohm coil. Its 9 wraps on each coil and the coils themselves measure at about 1.6 each. thus when combined split the difference and become a .8 ohm micro coil

photo-21 by IMEDICx90, on Flickr

that is the coils and here they are heated up:

photo-20 by IMEDICx90, on Flickr

i plan on threading them with cotton as its my trident and i love cotton in a dripper.

now my reason for 30g for my protanks and davide rebuilds is its easy to work with and you can get a higher resistance with fewer wraps, which is key since you have very limited space to work with inside the protank head. you could use 32 but i just dont care for 32g wire at all.

I love my 28g, so much so that i bought 120' of it. That being said... its all a matter of personal preference. But then again so is everything here in this hobby.

[Bebop]

Ahh I get it. That explains Rixters 4/3 wrap. You couldnt fit a 9/8 wrap in the small space of a protank coil so the wire thickness relates to the desired wrap whixh nets you the Ohms you're shooting for. Makes sense.

Andd when you say "subOhms" you mean any resistance less than 1 Ohm, right?

[IMEDICx90]

well it includes 1 ohm as well technically but yes. Its less then 1 ohm. in a standard dripper i run about .6-.8 ohms in a dual coil anything less then .8 ohms get ridiculously harsh for my taste. It produces the right amount of clouds for what i want so i dont push it.

[Bebop]

Awesome. Thanks for your help. Im learning a bit about this. I have only ever bought the wire/wick kits for my RDA which really only amount to assembly since they come "pre wrapped" but I have been able to play with resistance. Lowest I've gone is 1.6 which still produces a lot of vapor. I wont really get into subohm until I get that mod

Edited September 13, 2013 by Bebop12

[IMEDICx90]

get what mod bebop? what one are you looking at?

[Rixter]

Anyone know where to get a Kanthal 36 or 38 gauge?

Kanthal Wire 36 Gauge RW0189 - 100 FT 0.07oz Series A-1 Resistance AWG

Diameter: The thinner the wire (higher gauge number), the higher the resistance per foot. The thicker the wire (lower gauge number), the lower the resistance.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Rixter

[Bebop]

get what mod bebop? what one are you looking at?

Im still shopping, lol

Originally, i was going to go with a really basic no frils mech like the kmax or K100. In my search I found some amazing looking mods (and pricey, OMG) so im rethinking it because I may just want to spring for more of a showpiece just for fun. I dont know yet.

[Tam]

Kanthal Wire 36 Gauge RW0189 - 100 FT 0.07oz Series A-1 Resistance AWG

Diameter: The thinner the wire (higher gauge number), the higher the resistance per foot. The thicker the wire (lower gauge number), the lower the resistance.

So, if I wrap 4/3 I should be able to get a 2.2 ohm (or there abouts) with the same wraps if I use a higher gauge wire. Or I could do a 3/2 wrap and get roughly the same amount of resistance as if I used a 32 gauge. Is that right?

[Rixter]

So, if I wrap 4/3 I should be able to get a 2.2 ohm (or there abouts) with the same wraps if I use a higher gauge wire. Or I could do a 3/2 wrap and get roughly the same amount of resistance as if I used a 32 gauge. Is that right?

As you go down in wire diameter (up in gauge), your 4/3 coil is going to increase in resistance. Conversely, as you go up in wire diameter (down in gauge), that same 4/3 coil is going to decrease in resistance.

Think of it like a water hose...more water can flow through a big hose than a small one because a big hose offers less resistance (more flow).

So yes, my 32g 4/3 1.8Ω coil will grow in resistance if I switch to, say, 34g.

Personally, I wouldn't use wire any smaller than 34g because it'll be more apt to burn in two. I prefer 32g over 34g because 34g pops too easily for my taste.

*EDIT*

Also remember that my 4/3 is wrapped around a 3.5mm wick. If you use smaller wick, then those wraps are going to be smaller, too, which will further reduce the resistance of the coil.

There really is a lot of trial & error to figuring out what works for you, but after you meter a few of your first attempts, you'll get a pretty good idea of what's going on.

For KPTs, EVODs, & the like, I suggest going with 3.5mm wick and 32g Kanthal and see how it works out for you, and then adjust accordingly.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Rixter

[Aquatroy]

Think of it like a water hose...more water can flow through a big hose than a small one because a big hose offers less resistance (te.

Now that's dumbing down so I can get it....THANKS. Same premise for diff ohm coils yes? Wow I can see the light...

[Tam]

As you go down in wire diameter (up in gauge), your 4/3 coil is going to increase in resistance. Conversely, as you go up in wire diameter (down in gauge), that same 4/3 coil is going to decrease in resistance.

Think of it like a water hose...more water can flow through a big hose than a small one because a big hose offers less resistance (more flow).

So yes, my 32g 4/3 1.8Ω coil will grow in resistance if I switch to, say, 34g.

Personally, I wouldn't use wire any smaller than 34g because it'll be more apt to burn in two. I prefer 32g over 34g because 34g pops too easily for my taste.

*EDIT*

Also remember that my 4/3 is wrapped around a 3.5mm wick. If you use smaller wick, then those wraps are going to be smaller, too, which will further reduce the resistance of the coil.

There really is a lot of trial & error to figuring out what works for you, but after you meter a few of your first attempts, you'll get a pretty good idea of what's going on.

For KPTs, EVODs, & the like, I suggest going with 3.5mm wick and 32g Kanthal and see how it works out for you, and then adjust accordingly.

I plan to use the 3.5 mm wick after reading your experience with these and the smaller ones. 32 g Kanthal will be used for the KPT coils. I'd prefer to use the same wire to rebuild my Vision Eternity RBA but I've found that it's a little too thick to actually fit the teeny tiny little posts, which is why I'm looking to get much smaller wire for that but still use the 3.5 mm wick on it.

Thanks for explaining it in words I can understand, Rixter!

Now that's dumbing down so I can get it....THANKS. Same premise for diff ohm coils yes? Wow I can see the light...

Right??? I'm amazed that I think I finally get it... 0_0

[Aquatroy]

VAPETASTIC!