FDA to ban online e cigarette sales!

[Christopher]

Copy and paste from Smokey over on ECF:

AS reported overnight in a Wall Street Journal (and elsewhere), the FDA has raised the possibility that they may ban the online sales of electronic cigarettes as part of its regulatory actions, which will come into force once they have 'deemed' e-cigarettes to be Substantially Equivalent to tobacco products, probably this fall. Further, they are proposing that where e-cigarettes are lawfully sold, they are sold only to those aged 19 and over.

Banning online sales would, of course, decimate the industry and destroy the amazing pace of innovation we've been witnessing over the last 5 years.

Things we don't know from the article:

1. Whether they have the authority to ban online sales under the provisions of the act.

2. Whether this is being mooted, or if it's a done deal (as far as they're concerned).

3. Whether restricting online sales will require an amendment to the PACT act (and whether or not this is already in play)

4. What the policy is regarding everything else (flavorings, E-liquids versus sealed units, nicotine strength, ingredient specifications etc).

5. Whether the age restriction will also be imposed on tobacco cigarettes.

Regarding the last point, raising the age of sale to 19 year olds seems bizarre if its not being done with a commensurate raising of tobacco age limits. Essentially, they're raising the bar on a product that is vastly less harmful, while leaving the product it intends to replace untouched.

Also, from the article, it's clear that they have no doubts that they will be deeming E-Cigarettes as tobacco products in the near future.

I will leave it to others to fill in the blanks

[spydre]

Well, in Illinois, we just passed a bill stating that e-cigs and e-cig products can only be sold to those 18 and over, but the stores in my area don't even let you in the shop if you are under 18, although I've seen some people come in with older people (possibly older teens) that may be questionable on the 18 mark, but they were coming in with what appeared (by both the fact that they were together, and the conversation) a parent, and the parent was the customer, not the younger person. And one guy at one of the shops doesn't look a day over 19 or 20 (that's coming from my wizened old 39 year old self. If I compare him to my 18, almost 19, year old, he looks older, if I compare him to my 19, much closer to 20, year old nephew, he looks about the same age). But I'm assuming he's probably 20 (?), he's sitting at the shop with three APV's, because he likes different ones with different flavors, he likes different APV's, and he doesn't want to have to worry about a battery dying during his shift, and he admits that he vapes more when he's working, because you can vape in the shop, and EVERYONE's vaping. But he's actually one of nicest guys (most knowledgeable, willing to spend the most time going over equipment with you) in that shop, but I've never met the owners yet, as they both have full time jobs. There's another guy, who we didn't like, and another woman, I'd say late 20's, early 30's (she looks kinda rough, like she's been through the wringer), and she freely admits she had a smoker's cough when she quit analogs, and her lungs were in piss poor shape, but all that is fine now. I haven't dealt with her as a sales associate, but I've chatted her up with a couple customers she was selling to.

But my subject has wandered, as I'm prone to do. If the FDA passes this, I see two things happening (hopefully). B&M stores will (hopefully) start stocking more in terms of the hardware that they stock (my fave B&M, Better Vapes, in terms of APV's, only stocks the ZMax, and they don't even carry that in their online store, which existed for two years before the storefront, and they don't have the Davides and KPT's up on the online store yet). OR that could mean that a lot of the online stores will at least be setting up token storefronts so they could sell the hardware (the actual e-cig, and the APV's), but that would mean prices would go up, because they would have more expenses.

All in all, I hate that they might do this. I hope they don't manage to get the tobacco act expanded to include e-cigs, but I also see it as inevitable. Maybe they will also see that for some of us, the flavors are primarily what keep us from going back to analogs - that, and the ability to do it anywhere (although unlike some hospitals, I checked yesterday while I was out there, and my hospital you can't vape inside of), and some other benefits that have NOTHING to do with what analogs actually do to your body (I would have a harder time giving up my vaping than I did switching from analogs to vaping, and straight tobacco flavors, I'm not fond of, so I'm not sure I could vape those).

All that said, I think the FDA is still thinking with it's head wrapped around that very FLAWED "study" they did with the confiscated Chinese e-cigs (one brand, and only tested the actual cartridge, not juice, and not vapor) they did in 2008, despite more recent studies, including the one that came out of Philidelphia recently stating that the vapor provided no health risk to the user or "second-hand", other than the nicotine involved in the actual vaping, but that study did not go into the impacts of nicotine on the user's body, because a LOT of studies have talked about the impact of nicotine on the human body, some even conflicting, I believe.

You would think that the government would WANT us to make this switch (other than the fact that I think they are in Big Tobacco's pockets, and this is cutting into Big Tobacco's profits), as, although the manufacturers make no claim to be safer than analogs (because that would invite FDA scrutiny, and they don't want that), it actually is (though they wouldn't believe that without proof - but all of us, I think, have noticed an improvement in our health, or at least, an improvement in our nose breathing, being able to smell, and improved taste), and it doesn't harm people around us (again, I don't think they'll believe it without seeing more than one study on it), and for gods' sake, it gets us off the freaking cancer sticks with 4000 chemicals, including urea, I think ammonia, um, I know other stuff, but can't remember it, and how many carcinogens?

Okay, that's all I can think of to say right now, but I'm sure more will come to me later. Stupid fracking FDA. I love their involvement with medications, and I wish they could regulate over the counter supplements - especially the ones that claim to be miracle cures for such and such, but as it is, they can only analyze them, recommend that they be pulled off the shelf (they did that in one case lately where the B supplement sold at nutrition stores actually contained steroids as well, but I've still seen that same supplement advertised) and warn the public away from problem ones - which is why I only take my One-A-Day (which I currently can't even take because I'm on a megadose of Vit D) and fish oil. But e-cigarettes is going too far, IMO. And I don't think the flavors is marketing to kids, because this is really only marketed to former smokers, right?

[bcartervol98]

Like I said I am working to negotiate a very large order of the liquids I like, a years supply at least.

Also this most likely will pertain only to liquids, not hardware. You can buy a bong online under the tag "for tobacco use only". They cannot regulate that really, as the hardware contains no nicotine and is only the delivery device. This should keep hardware cheaper and more readily available online if the suppliers can survive on the profits of that and local liquid sales. Liquid is by far the most profitable thing in a store I would think, especially with those that mix to order and buy the supplies in huge quantities.

[Aquatroy]

. Liquid is by far the most profitable thing in a store I would think, especially with those that mix to order and buy the supplies in huge quantities.

Yes liquid is where all the money is made, very small margins on hardware..

I wouldn't stock up too soon, wait till legislation is made, you'll have a window to still purchase online if need be..

[bcartervol98]

Yes liquid is where all the money is made, very small margins on hardware..

I wouldn't stock up too soon, wait till legislation is made, you'll have a window to still purchase online if need be..

Can you explain what you mean by a window to purchase? If they announce they have banned online sales, then would online sales not be banned immediately or does this require congressional action and-or a vote?

The reason I ask is when they passed the Safe Ports act that contained the UIGEA (Unlawful Interneg Gambling Enforcement Act) the best sites shut down to US customers for a while. Then, since they were abroad and not domiciled in the US, they started allowing US players again. Everything went on as normal until what we call "Black Friday" int he poker community when the DOJ seized the assets of PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, and Ultimatebet-Absolute poker. I lost more money in this happening than I care to mention especially on Full Tilt.

Then again, this was a congressional action and not a unilateral action of the FDA. I am confused I guess by what you mean by "window to purchase".

[Aquatroy]

There is usually an effective date, normally minimum 30 days for a rule to go into effect. And I'm sure someone will push legal actions that might give them even more time. Very different from gambling and not paying taxes...

[bcartervol98]

There is usually an effective date, normally minimum 30 days for a rule to go into effect. And I'm sure someone will push legal actions that might give them even more time. Very different from gambling and not paying taxes...

It never had to do with taxes as these entities were not in the US with a physical presence and most players filed taxes on their winnings, at least the winning players did. I kept records of every penny won and lost. Over a 5 year period I made over $20k per year average doing it on the side, part time job like, and this benefited the US government because I paid my taxes on those winnings. It was more about conservatives not wanting people to have the right to do something they view as a "sin" as well as the Brick and Mortar casinos wanting to get in on the action and in order to do that, they were willing to screw over hundreds of thousands of Americans int he process.

LOL don't get me started as this was-is-and has been the political issue that has affected and motivated me personally the most in my lifetime. My wife didn't understand how I suddenly became so politically active and she has already called our Congressman this morning on the e-cig issue. I think she gets it now. Nanny Statists that want to control, not govern. The US is a shell of what we used to be in terms of freedoms, and that is a slap in the face of every person that has ever served their country in any capacity. I am getting pissed just talking about it, probably should stop lol.

[Jeffb]

Im curious. If they ban online sales, how will B&M stores purchase their hardware from China?

[Jeffb]

If the ban goes through, I expect IMEDIC to continue mixing and selling to us on the sly

[bcartervol98]

Im curious. If they ban online sales, how will B&M stores purchase their hardware from China?

There is no way for them to regulate the hardware, only the liquid that contains nicotine. JMO, no legal expert, but I think this will hold true.

If the ban goes through, I expect IMEDIC to continue mixing and selling to us on the sly

As do I. He could BLOW UP!

Hope he can duplicate my flavors LOL

[Aquatroy]

Casaa has asked for everyone to take a breath and hold back a bit they have a meeting with FDA on Monday , and we should get a clearer picture of what's happening. Casaa has asked not to email or call the FDA at this time.

[Bebop]

Yeah, a ban is going to piss a lot of people off...

Let's say they can ban on-line sales of liquid but not hardware. This will also effect Big Tobacco as they have already arrived to the playing field. I don't know that this can happen overnight without a fight. I think we would have some time to stockpile, although the suppliers are going to go into overload and you'd be probably looking at incredible delays.

Am I I right in assuming the simplicity of of it would be obtaining liquid nicotine? They aren't going to be able to ban PG, VG or the flavoring. DIY is so easy (I don't mean GOOD DIY is easy, lol). It's not like you need to be a chemist to make up your own juice. I can see in our future some on-line classes from our DIYer's,lol

I don't get the point of banning sales of e- liquid. It'll only spawn a wave of moonshiner's

[Christie]

Regarding the last point, raising the age of sale to 19 year olds seems bizarre if its not being done with a commensurate raising of tobacco age limits. Essentially, they're raising the bar on a product that is vastly less harmful, while leaving the product it intends to replace untouched.

Also, from the article, it's clear that they have no doubts that they will be deeming E-Cigarettes as tobacco products in the near future.

Im sure this has something to do with the taxes cigarettes bring in and nothing about safety .

[Christie]

Im curious. If they ban online sales, how will B&M stores purchase their hardware from China?

And if b&m are exempt from getting their hardware from china - its nothing to obtain a business license, people will just get one and buy whatever they want.

[bcartervol98]

Spoke with Jennifer from VapeDudes and Sarah from EcBlends and they both have been advised if the FDA were to ban online sales immediately, that they would have at minimum a year to comply.

I am gonna order a few months worth just to be safe, but it appears the black cloud may not be as black as I thought when first reading this.

[IMEDICx90]

its all good guys. ill still sell on the sly. but only in chat rooms that arent indexed! lol!

[Love2VapeDaily]

its all good guys. ill still sell on the sly. but only in chat rooms that arent indexed! lol!

or maybe some other form of messaging like snail mail where YOU know if it has been tampered with.

[kerk]

It never had to do with taxes as these entities were not in the US with a physical presence and most players filed taxes on their winnings, at least the winning players did. I kept records of every penny won and lost. Over a 5 year period I made over $20k per year average doing it on the side, part time job like, and this benefited the US government because I paid my taxes on those winnings. It was more about conservatives not wanting people to have the right to do something they view as a "sin" as well as the Brick and Mortar casinos wanting to get in on the action and in order to do that, they were willing to screw over hundreds of thousands of Americans int he process.

LOL don't get me started as this was-is-and has been the political issue that has affected and motivated me personally the most in my lifetime. My wife didn't understand how I suddenly became so politically active and she has already called our Congressman this morning on the e-cig issue. I think she gets it now. Nanny Statists that want to control, not govern. The US is a shell of what we used to be in terms of freedoms, and that is a slap in the face of every person that has ever served their country in any capacity. I am getting pissed just talking about it, probably should stop lol.

Spoken like a true Tennessean.

And all I will ad is that, IMO, if you want even more government in your house, and your pocket, let's just say, don't support Tea Pary candidates.

[kerk]

There is usually an effective date, normally minimum 30 days for a rule to go into effect. And I'm sure someone will push legal actions that might give them even more time. Very different from gambling and not paying taxes...

The only way 'legal action' can effect a date is if someone can get a 'Federal' judge to issue a stay, or an injunction. And 'if' that happened, 'that' judge could lift it at anytime, or maintain it until a court hears, and decides, on it's legality. And that is 'only' if someone challenges it in court.

That is 'all' that can stop an FDA regulation, other than congress actually passing a law to counteract it. That could take a couple years, but there is no chance of that even happening with this Senate or President

Elections have consequences............for you, and your children. But hey, it sure doesn't hurt to squawk to your elected reps........especially if it's a democrat.

And like bcarter said, 'don't get me started'.

Edited August 23, 2013 by kerk

[kerk]

its all good guys. ill still sell on the sly. but only in chat rooms that arent indexed! lol!

And don't forget, dark ally's, abandoned warehouses, and backroom, vapor filled, juice joints.......or is that 'juke joints'?

[irwink]

Spoken like a true Tennessean.

And all I will ad is that, IMO, if you want even more government in your house, and your pocket, let's just say, don't support Tea Pary candidates.

Like jumping from one frying pan into a deep fat fryer imo. I hold out more (not much more) hope for libertarians. I may want change but not Michelle Bachman kinda change.

We need systemic change, campaign finance reform, term limits, end of an entrenched 2 party system, end of politicians transitioning to lobbying firms they conspired with once out of office, etc. Not likely to happen when that kind of change is in the very hands ot the corrupt players that we have little choice in voting for. Might as well ask drug cartels to ban all the ingredients for the products they produce. Fat chance.

George Wallace was viewed by most as a pretty unsavory character. But like a few historically unsavory characters he did make one astute observation when asked, while he was running as an independent for president, what he thought of the republican and democratic parties. His reply was that, "There ain't a dime's worth of difference between 'em." True that.

[kerk]

George Wallace was viewed by most as a pretty unsavory character. But like a few historically unsavory characters he did make one astute observation when asked, while he was running as an independent for president, what he thought of the republican and democratic parties. His reply was that, "There ain't a dime's worth of difference between 'em." True that.

Good points, but personally, I don't see the Tea Party types as representative of the Republican party. This has been demonstrated by the head aches their members in the house have been giving Speaker Boehner by not 'going along to get along', and making it tougher for him to 'cave' on many issues.

Wallace made a good sound bite, and one you would expect from a third party, but I can't paint with that broad a brush stroke. If one could, there would be 'no' disagreements 'within' either party.

Anyway, I'm starting to smell a 'thread hijacking' here........so I'll shut up, and try to remember something another vaper said on this thread, "..don't get me started..".

[spydre]

There is usually an effective date, normally minimum 30 days for a rule to go into effect. And I'm sure someone will push legal actions that might give them even more time. Very different from gambling and not paying taxes...

Yeah, when they announced the ban on flavors (which included the trace of cocoa or chocolate most Marlboro light smokers didn't realize was in there, but I noticed ever since high school), there was like a three month lead time. People were PISSED that menthol wasn't included (but I think menthol constituted a HUGE percentage of the market share on tobacco sales), and I don't think things like strawberry swishers were included, or pipe tobacco (but those weren't considered cigarettes).

It never had to do with taxes as these entities were not in the US with a physical presence and most players filed taxes on their winnings, at least the winning players did. I kept records of every penny won and lost. Over a 5 year period I made over $20k per year average doing it on the side, part time job like, and this benefited the US government because I paid my taxes on those winnings. It was more about conservatives not wanting people to have the right to do something they view as a "sin" as well as the Brick and Mortar casinos wanting to get in on the action and in order to do that, they were willing to screw over hundreds of thousands of Americans int he process.

LOL don't get me started as this was-is-and has been the political issue that has affected and motivated me personally the most in my lifetime. My wife didn't understand how I suddenly became so politically active and she has already called our Congressman this morning on the e-cig issue. I think she gets it now. Nanny Statists that want to control, not govern. The US is a shell of what we used to be in terms of freedoms, and that is a slap in the face of every person that has ever served their country in any capacity. I am getting pissed just talking about it, probably should stop lol.

The gambling thing wasn't the WINNERS not paying taxes, it was the gambling companies that were actually operating in the US, but using things like Grand Cayman bank accounts to get OUT of paying taxes. They were trying to do what big companies like Apple do very well - except they DIDN'T do it very well. Apple has it's assets diverted into so many mini-companies, some with no actual BUILDING presence in a country, but they do have a mail drop box, and that mini-company pays the tax rate in that country, which is very low to nothing, not to mention that all of their manufacturing is done in mostly China, where they pay pennies on the dollar what they would have to pay in the US for workers, without worry about FICA, health benefits, etc., just those pesky workers committing suicide. That's how Apple ends up paying just 3% taxes on their whole corporate earnings, while working Americans pay generally, what, 18%? Higher if you add in state taxes?

Im curious. If they ban online sales, how will B&M stores purchase their hardware from China?

That would be considered wholesale, and wouldn't be banned. There are plenty of B&M cigarette stores that import cigarettes (Dunhill is the one that immediately comes to mind, but I'm familiar with that, there are also french cigarettes, etc.). The cigarette companies aren't selling TO CONSUMERS online, they are receiving orders from a retail company and shipping them there, a/k/a a middle man, who's job it is to ensure that the minimum tobacco age is met.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting the impression that it's juice. To me, it looks to me, and it stated in the article "e-cigarettes". The three people they mentioned and interviewed were the people that manufacture Blu, Njoy, and another company that manufacturers both disposables and the Blu type devices. I haven't seen anything that says it's the juice, or anything other than "e-cigarettes". Maybe they are literally just talking about the stupid little fake cigarettes, but if you've seen something that links it to juice, please show me a link.

Regarding the last point, raising the age of sale to 19 year olds seems bizarre if its not being done with a commensurate raising of tobacco age limits. Essentially, they're raising the bar on a product that is vastly less harmful, while leaving the product it intends to replace untouched.

Also, from the article, it's clear that they have no doubts that they will be deeming E-Cigarettes as tobacco products in the near future.

Im sure this has something to do with the taxes cigarettes bring in and nothing about safety .

From the article, it says making the minimum age 18 OR 19. I would lay money down that if they make the minimum age for this 19, the minimum age for smoking is going up as well.

And if b&m are exempt from getting their hardware from china - its nothing to obtain a business license, people will just get one and buy whatever they want.

In my town, to get a business license, it's a little more involved than that. You have to be properly zoned (so, you have actual declare what your business is going to be doing, even for a home business, I believe), inspected, etc., and the mayor signs off on the business licenses.

We KNOW businesses are getting their hardware from China - that's where a good chunk of the hardware, APV's, tanks, are manufactured. From what I've seen, it's just juice that people don't like being foreign.

Edited August 24, 2013 by spydre

[spydre]

Read this from CASAA's facebook group. It's an open group, so you should be able to see it.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/casaamembers/permalink/554003184637533/

I just got an email from the FDA about the WSJ article. I'll try to post it here
"This Week in CTP - Updates from the Center for Tobacco Products

The FDA wants to correct inaccuracies in an August 22, 2013 article in the Wall Street Journal, titled “FDA Discusses Banning Online Sales of E-Cigarettes.”

The FDA frequently meets with members of the tobacco industry, as well as with public health groups and other stakeholders, to better understand any concerns or questions they may have. As part of this effort, “listening sessions” with e-cigarette companies have been held at their request and have given the FDA an opportunity to listen to their concerns or views.

“The FDA did not raise or weigh in on potential regulatory options—including any potential restrictions on e-cigarettes or any other particular product category—during these listening sessions,” said Mitch Zeller, director of the FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products. “Any details about the agency’s intent to regulate additional categories of tobacco products will be made publicly available to all interested parties at the same time, through the issuance of a proposed rule.”

The FDA currently regulates cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, roll-your-own tobacco and smokeless tobacco. The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (TCA) permits the FDA to deem other “tobacco products” to be subject to the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act by regulation. The agency has announced its intent to issue a proposed rule deeming products meeting the definition of a “tobacco product” to be subject to FDA regulation. "

[Spotzy]

Vapers ,

Please remember this has LESS than NOTHING to do with Your Health and or Safety !

It's SOLEY about Big Pharma , Insurance , Tobacco and OUR lousey rotten No good Politicians ( R or D )

Here is the thing :

If less are at risk of Lung cancer or related health issues ( Less money for Pharma and Insurance companies )

If less are smoking analogs ( then Tobacco companies are crying and whining cus they have too much forked out of freaking law suits and banking any more Billions )

Our Government can't play the HEALTH CARE crock if WE ARE HEALTHY !

The Pharmas can not give us drugs that are gonna kill us if we don't need them( they get less from fed funding and insurance comapnies)

Its kinda like this NEW credit card ( RFID tracking chip Embedded in or bank cards ) they are all coming out with this is all about tracking , hounding us like animals and taking away our FREEDOMS !

read that here : http://www.bankrate.com/finance/credit-cards/are-chip-and-pin-credit-cards-coming-1.aspx

IF they ban online sales of vaping products that is a true sign that we are NO LONGER ALLOWED TO LIVe FREELY .. Cuz ya know you can STILL Buy Analogs and Cigars Online !

You can buy Bongs, glass pipes, BATH salts, hash, pot a likes, speed , freaking home grown pot all kinda of stuff like that so agaIn :

This could litterally KILL alot of our online choices for vendors , Some are simply 1 guy or gal at a computer trying to put food on the table for thier families and THEY KNOW IT !

Please remember this has LESS than NOTHING to do with Your Health and or Safety !

P.S. They need to worry about REGULATING Insurance , Pharma, BIG Business , Banks, , Health care Providers and their own GD Government asses

Edited August 25, 2013 by Spotzy