Over Discharge and Mechanical Mods

[ArnieH]

A note on redundancy and safety:

When it comes to safety, redundancy is a highly desirable thing. Many safety systems are built with redundancy in mind. So that if one level should fail, there is a backup. Take your computer data, we all know we should have a backup (just in case), and better yet a backup of a backup.Most computers have built in restore points, and a backup partition on the hard drive.

Lets use another analogy: Let us say you decide to build a wall around your village to prevent/deter attackers/invaders from getting in. While one may be sufficient, the building of another interior wall inside of the first one affords you double protection. Should the attackers break through the first wall, you have a second line of defense in place.

Ulma has been great, her willingness to help newcomers to the site is extraordinary. Not saying she is always right, but her advice on battery safety is generally very sound.

With regard to batteries, protected ones generally have higher capacities than IMR or hybrid types. Which is something I find most useful. For me, using a big battery mod is all about vape time.

Edited July 22, 2013 by ArnieH

[Uma]

LOL, okay, so now we have a battle over batteries? This is twisted fun.

The Protected batteries of old weren't as safe as the IMR (AW-IMR) because they didn't have the Safe Chemistry that the IMR's have. The Safe Chemistry battery doesn't "blow up", but the old fashioned Protected batteries could. So, Vapers switched over to the AW-IMR type of batteries, for the safer chemistry.

A lot of Vapers missed the Fuse protection that the Protected Batteries had, so they started using the one time Fuse with their IMR's. Best of best worlds. Except, now we need to buy a truckload of fuses, so we always have a fuse at the ready in case one pops if we over drain it, over charge it.

So, next, they came out with a reSettabe fuse, so we didn't have to replace the fuse every time it blew. We just had to take the battery out, check it with the multimeter for charge levels, if okay, put it on the charger and replace the battery inside the mod with a charged battery that is at least an hour off the charger. The fuse would reset back to functioning.

Finally, companies came out with a safer Protective Battery. The Panasonic is one of them. It's a great battery!! But, it is a new concept.

Some trust it, some don't. Even here in this thread, we have one who doesn't trust it, so he uses an extra fuse. This makes the battery, with 2 fuses, too long for the mod. It can not close completely.

To remedy that, it was suggested to use the regular sized IMR battery with a fuse, which will fit like a glove and his mod will now close completely, the Battery is Safe Chemistry to begin with (does not explode), and with the Fuse added to the equasion, he can still feel safe. If not a fuse, then use the circuit board called the "KICK" with the IMR battery.

A Kick will not fit with the Protected Batteries. The Protected Batteries are longer, because they have a fuse built right in.

No, I don't know everything, and I'm still learning a lot of things, but I do know that fitting a Kick or even an extra tiny Fuse inside my mod with a Protected battery just isn't going to fit correctly. I want my set up to perform optimally, and leaving threads exposed is not exactly allowing the set up to perform to it's maximum.

Either go with a Protected Panasonic or go with an IMR with a fuse added or go with an IMR with a KICK added. All 3 are protected and by golly all 3 of the safety ways fits inside the mod. Adding a Fuse to an already Fuse Protected Battery will not fit.

There should always be a drop in performance. (unless you are vaping with a KICK, or a Provari with power chip thingie or VW and then it drops during the last few puffs). The resistance of your atomizer plays a key part as well. There are quite a few variables.

There we have it.

It wasn't a thread about battery battles. It was a thread about:

1. help! My battery over drains!!!

2. using a Fuse with a battery that has a built in fuse already, making the entire battery so long that the mod won't close completely.

3. Resistance in ohms and in fuses can make a difference in the

Griz came in and cleared up the questions that were floating. He corrected and confirmed and just overall set many records straight. I luvz ya Griz! Thanks!!!!

(PS. I'm not upset, I'm just trying to keep this thread on topic).

[ArnieH]

To remedy that, it was suggested to use the regular sized IMR battery with a fuse, which will fit like a glove and his mod will now close completely, the Battery is Safe Chemistry to begin with (does not explode), and with the Fuse added to the equasion, he can still feel safe. If not a fuse, then use the circuit board called the "KICK" with the IMR battery.

A Kick will not fit with the Protected Batteries. The Protected Batteries are longer, because they have a fuse built right in.

No, I don't know everything, and I'm still learning a lot of things, but I do know that fitting a Kick or even an extra tiny Fuse inside my mod with a Protected battery just isn't going to fit correctly. I want my set up to perform optimally, and leaving threads exposed is not exactly allowing the set up to perform to it's maximum.

(PS. I'm not upset, I'm just trying to keep this thread on topic).

Ulma it does seem you are upset. I may have missed something, but when was it suggested that I use an IMR battery with a fuse instead of the vendors recommendation of a protected battery? Where are you getting this information, that if the end cap does not fit completely all the way that it will cause a performance loss? In my opinion if a person feels safer with a fuse, even added to a mod that has protection already built in, that is their decision and is not necesarilly a bad one from a safety point of view. Have I not made clear the importance of redundancy in safety applications? Yes, we learned from Mike, that their might be some resistance introduced into the circuit, but he also indicated it could be compensated for via a lower res atty.

So yes, I appreciate the info you gave me, but I have to say that some of it was just plain wrong! For instance, this idea that one would cancel out the other and so forth. It is crucial that new vapers get proper information from the start. And yes, I know about the history of the batteries and what vaper's say you should or should not use. I did much reading on the subject before making my purchases. So Ulma, I am not trying to argue with ya. Did I not say you were my hero?

Edited July 22, 2013 by ArnieH

[Uma]

You never did mention what Mod you have.

The 2 fuses won't cancel each other, that was a wrong expression I used. What does happen, is the weakest fuse will pop, which breaks the circuit. It still acts like you only had the one fuse. You have a fuse inside your protected battery and a fuse added outside the battery, and they are now considered an inline circuit, if I learned this correctly. I am no engineer or battery expert, and this would need to be confirmed by someone who is.

The weakest fuse will pop first.

Extra fuses aren't needed, but if you need it for your own piece of mind, then you need it.

Read it and weep.

Or not.

It's up to you. Obviously.

I

[CascadianExotics]

Uh, oh....Uma's mad!!!

Excuse me while I duck and cover...

:p

Honestly, this is good reading. I'm learning a lot more about batteries. So, please continue!!

[ArnieH]

Read it and weep.

Or not.

It's up to you. Obviously.

I

Thank you Ulma. Yes, the circuit would be broken. Please forgive me Ulma, and do not be mad. Your intentions were true and honest and I appreciate all your help.

Oh, and if you get a chance, stop by our website, we have some people with questions that are in need of your expertise. You can find us here:

Spammy link removed.

Edited July 26, 2013 by jeffb

[Uma]

Uh, oh....Uma's mad!!!

Excuse me while I duck and cover...

:p

Honestly, this is good reading. I'm learning a lot more about batteries. So, please continue!!

LOL. We all are.

Hey, maybe we can continue on with an update on battery info itself? A lot has changed over the years (thank God!!), and it would be good to get the best of the best out there now. Basically, with eBay leading the way with rebranded clones and phonies, about the only ones I know to trust are IMR from AW, and the RTSVapes who supplies them. (never got a phoney from them yet).

What about the Panasonics? Who are the trusted Vendors with those? EFEST? (I bought a few eFest, and mine didn't last near as long as they were touted to, but they might work well for others?). IMR- MNKE's rock. What else is out there and what other vendors specialize in batteries? (I guess I could go research, but I've been pretty happy with what's working and haven't had the motivation to dig into it).

I bet Will Black knows. Where is Will anyway?? He should be in here talking up a storm, not me.

[Uma]

Ulma it does seem you are upset. I may have missed something, but when was it suggested that I use an IMR battery with a fuse instead of the vendors recommendation of a protected battery?

SAY WHAT?????!!!!!! You have totally missed the boat here. It was suggested that you use EITHER:

1. A (your) Protected Battery. Period. (just like the vendor suggested). WITHOUT AN EXTRA FUSE ADDED. OR OR OR OR OR OR (smart alec me, adds the EXTRA OR's for you to notice at least one of them).

2. An AW-IMR high drain Safe Chemistry high drain battery WITH a FUSE ADDED. Either ShortStop or Resettable. This is considered a Protected Battery. Many use the IMR without the fuse, because they are so dang safe chemistry. They are fantastic little buggers.

So, get this clear, okay.

It's an either/or. or an EITHER/OR

The Protected Panasonics are hereby known as the king of all Protected batteries in the land. (CE said so, and I believe CE). They are good. They do not need a back up. They will not explode like the old protected batteries of old. (CE said so!) They will just run out of time... like the AW-IMR's do.

Unless depleted TOO far!! If they're pushed too far, they turn into an UMA and get hot and rain all over your parade with fire and brimstone. You really don't want that.

I toss mine when they get low, because I don't like to take chances, and I hate it when my 8 hour battery turns into nothing but a 4 hour wonder, just because I over vaped it. Like you, I am a safety nut. But, unlike you, I already have my backups to my backups... a SAFE BATTERY and A FUSE. If it were a blowy uppy battery, I wouldn't use it, or I would probably use 2 fuses too. Who knows. But the Protected Panasonic is NOT a blowy Uppy battery, YOU said so yourself, YOU said they are the best in the west. Why do YOU not trust it? What DO you expect it to do if it goes south?

2. Where are you getting this information, that if the end cap does not fit completely all the way that it will cause a performance loss?

OMG! The first things you learn, when troubleshooting, is:

1. Are your threads clean ? Clean threads make for solid connection/current.

2. Is your connection clean and proper? does it need lifting or tightening?

3. Is your switch clean?

4. Is your battery charged and at proper volts?

5. Is your mod turned on? lol sad but true.

6. Is your atomizer reading properly? Clean and making proper connection?

3. So yes, I appreciate the info you gave me, but I have to say that some of it was just plain wrong! For instance, this idea that one would cancel out the other

I corrected the mistakes I discovered I made. I made corrections. READ THEM.

and so forth. It is crucial that new vapers get proper information from the start. And yes, I know about the history of the batteries and what vaper's say you should or should not use. I did much reading on the subject before making my purchases. So Ulma, I am not trying to argue with ya.

4. Did I not say you were my hero?

Don't ever, not ever never ever ever ever not EVER backhand compliment me again.

.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Uma

[Uma]

I am not sure what Griz/mike is thinking when he says "depends what you call top and bottom". As far as I know the top of the battery is always the positive pole and is clearly distinguishable even on flat top batteries that don't have the button. I have never seen a battery where both terminals look exactly the same, but perhaps he has, Not trying to nitpick or anything.

I'm not a rocket scientist or anything, but I assume he means that it depends upon whether your mod is up or down. Sometimes the battery is inserted nipple towards the top, and sometimes it's towards the bottom. It depends on how the Modder made that particular Mod. So, he was lightening up the air a little, by saying "It depends what you call top and bottom".

But, I could be wrong.

[IMEDICx90]

Edited July 24, 2013 by IMEDICx90

[ArnieH]

My dear Ulma:

OMG! The first things you learn, when troubleshooting, is:

1. Are your threads clean ? Clean threads make for solid connection/current.

Yes, my threads are clean. I think you have this idea that my end cap is somehow hanging off the bottom of the mod or something. I have said repeatedly that what we are talking about is a hair's width. But any exposed threads, dirty or not, would not interfere with the connection/current as they wouid not be coming in contact with anything. But I could be wrong.

2. Is your connection clean and proper? does it need lifting or tightening?

Yes. Certainly doesn't need lifting.

3. Is your switch clean?

Yes.

4. Is your battery charged and at proper volts?

Yes, my dear Ulma!

5. Is your mod turned on? lol sad but true.

Unfortunately my mod does not have a main on/off switch. That being said, I do not store my mods with the batteries in them. Something I read sometime ago about there being some sort of nominal current drain (may or may not be true), like when you leave a wall adapter plugged into an AC outlet (particularly those that have LED's) without any device on the other end.

6. Is your atomizer reading properly? Clean and making proper connection?

Yes.

I'm not a rocket scientist or anything, but I assume he means that it depends upon whether your mod is up or down. Sometimes the battery is inserted nipple towards the top, and sometimes it's towards the bottom. It depends on how the Modder made that particular Mod. So, he was lightening up the air a little, by saying "It depends what you call top and bottom".

But, I could be wrong.

Yes, I have heard of mods where the battery is inserted with the positive pole facing downwards. But even so, there is only one top and one bottom and they are clearly distinguishable. If the terminals looked exactly alike people would be putting the darn things in backwards and such.,

Yes, you could be wrong Ulma. Even heroes (heroines) make mistakes.

You have learned that you have been throwing out perfectly good batteries. But you know, it all comes down to what makes you as an individual feel safe.

Do I think the onboard protection circuit on my battery is going to fail? Unlikely.

But if it should, my fuse is there to protect me. And it makes me feel good. What's wrong with that?

Don't ever, not ever never ever ever ever not EVER backhand compliment me again.

My dearest sweet Ulma. How dare you accuse me of such a thing!

Edited July 24, 2013 by ArnieH

[ArnieH]

What about the Panasonics? Who are the trusted Vendors with those?

Ummm, let me guess Orbtronic?

http://www.orbtronic.com/

Btw, shipping is free.

I would not buy these:

http://www.amazon.com/UltraFire-Protected-4000mAh-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B0067XRH8W

Edited July 24, 2013 by ArnieH

[Uma]

To be honest, I toss mine if they go below 3.2... I might be paranoid, I don't remember.

Yep. Paranoid. But it works for me and my chronic CRS.

Plus the ones that lose time, oomph, or that anything changes at all, that get tossed.

The Panasonic is a new battery, popular this year. It is majorly different from the protected batteries of old. Perhaps stating the specifications of your particular battery earlier might have been a wise choice.

The Panasonic can pull the amps that others can not. You need to read the charts of your particular battery and know what it is capable of.

You never did answer why you don't trust your Protected Panasonic.

PS. The Checkoff list, was just that. It's the typical checkoff list for everybody with any battery holder/holder. It was not meant for you specifically to run down the list with. I thought you'd be smart enough to figure that out. My apologies.

[ArnieH]

Yep. Paranoid. But it works for me and my chronic CRS.

This is the only thing that counts. We should all do whatever makes us feel safe. I would rather see people taking extra precautions than to see an unfornate accident. Most of the mod explosions in the past were apparently due to people stacking batteries in metal tube mods. Some people are/were buying regular unprotected Li-ion cells, not safe chemistry cells.

Regarding stacking, it can be safe if done properly (i.e. using and charging as a set, synching the voltage, rotating the battery nearest to the atomizer connection, etc.).

As vapers I believe we must stick together. We MUST help one another. So while we may disagree, I still have great respect for you and everyone here, Intentions are what counts. And yours were true and honest and I thank you.

Btw: what is CRS?

I have OCD, which can come in handy because of the associated meticulousness and painstaking attention to detail. This is especially true if we can channel it, but unfortunately we tend to obsesse.over ridiculous things most of the time. I do think we have a greater ability to filter out external stimuli due to our obessive tunnel-like thinking,

Edited July 26, 2013 by ArnieH

[Rixter]

I know of only one mod explosion and that was with a homemade mod and the wrong batteries. All other incidents I've heard of happened during charging.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Rixter

[ArnieH]

I know of only one mod explosion and that was with a homemade mod and the wrong batteries. All other incidents I've heard of happened during charging.

Check out this thread on ECF: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/announcements-news/269461-exploding-mods-update-february-2012-a.html

Edited July 26, 2013 by ArnieH

[Jeffb]

Important sentence in that year old thread:

"the explosions causing injury always happen to stacked batteries in metal tubemods."

[ArnieH]

Important sentence in that year old thread:

"the explosions causing injury always happen to stacked batteries in metal tubemods."

Yep, that is what I was talking about.

Most of the mod explosions in the past were apparently due to people stacking batteries in metal tube mods.

Edited July 26, 2013 by ArnieH

[Jeffb]

I havent stacked batteries in years. No reason to do that nowadays.

[Rixter]

It's on ECF...I don't buy a word of it.

[ArnieH]

I havent stacked batteries in years. No reason to do that nowadays.

I agree. Are some people still doing it? sure!

Apparently the danger comes about because in a series, the voltages get out of synch or something and they age differently. The uppermost battery appears to drain faster, which requires rotating of the batteries in the seriies. The rest is too technical for me. heh. But things may have changed with the newer batteries.

Edited July 26, 2013 by ArnieH

[Love2VapeDaily]

It's on ECF...I don't buy a word of it.

Forget ecf

[Rixter]

Forget ecf

Right first letter...wrong word.

[Love2VapeDaily]

Right first letter...wrong word.

Right, maybe add the word THE between forget and ecf

[WillBlack]

There is nothing wrong with draining Panasonic Li-ions to 3V. If you look at the 2900/3100 datasheets you'll note Panasonic determines the mAh based on a 2.5V cutoff. It's a way Panasonic exaggerates the mAh.

FWIW anything between the battery and the atty will impact performance.

The Protected batteries of old weren't as safe as the IMR (AW-IMR) because they didn't have the Safe Chemistry that the IMR's have.

A traditional Li-Ion battery with a protection circuit (PCM) is still the safest choice and in the long run will also maintain the battery best. A PCM provides protects against over charging, over discharging (which what the OP saw) and dead shorts. And in the event of a dead short it trips almost instantaneously.

An IMR also has massive amounts of energy that will be released in the case of a dead short, It may have safe chemistry, but you better be ready to toss your PV if a short happens.

Here's some interesting pics of a shorted AW IMR18650/1600mAh cell posted by Old Soldier on ECF.

It never would have gotten to that point with a protected, PCM equipped battery.

It's also best to suit the battery to the task.

As an example with a 2Ω atty/carto you'll need about ~2A, which is quite easy for 18650s. High drain batteries have a huge amount of unneeded energy which is why some can handle a 20A discharge.

Kinda like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly off your nose.