help with using twisted kanthal as a coil

[jsr27]

hey guys i was wondering if i can use twisted kanthal wire to replace my regular coils? im going to be using a vamo vv/vw mod with vivi nova tanks. will the twisted make the ohms at higher resistance? i need to know what gauge wire would be best. your opinions a very much appreciated!

[Uma]

Twisted wires are great, they add flavor due to the excess amount of coil for the juice to cling to. Just make sure you twist it in consistent tension and you should be fine.

I use 32gauge, but others have used the thicker (lower) gauges with success. (30, 28, )

If you're not sure how many wraps you'll need for your preferred resistance, just wrap an extra coil or two then you normally do. The coils are easier to remove, impossible to add unless you recoil.

The easiest way to achieve consistent tension is by using the drill on low speed.. If you don't have a chuck, you can use a coat hanger.

[jsr27]

ive never had to replace the coil but i do know how and know how to twist it i just dont know how many times i should wrap the wick to get about 3 ohm resistance. anyone know?

[Rixter]

It's gonna take a lot of wraps to get to 3Ω using twisted 32g Kanthal, as a 4/3 coil on my RBA is only ±1.1Ω, and a 5/4 coil is only ±1.3Ω. I metered a 1" piece of twisted 32g Kanthal to have roughly 1Ω of resistance, so it's gonna take close to 3" to achieve 3Ω...that's a lot of coils to fit into such a tiny housing. You're gonna need a wire that provides slightly more resistance than 3Ω in a 2" section...that should be plenty to re-coil a Nova atty. A 34g Kanthal A-1 would probably be just about right.

Click here for a chart of resistance wire gauges and resistance levels per inch.

[jsr27]

what does 4/3 coil mean and 5/4 coil? you know any links i can study up on all this ohms and resistance and what to use for vv/vw device. i know a tiny bit but have a ton to learn. im very interested in the vaping experience but dont know what sites and info to study from. thank a lot folks.

[Uma]

I agree, Rixter. Trying for a 3.0 ohm coil with 28 gauge will be difficult... and even more difficult with a twisted 28. (28 is lower resistance than 32).

A 9/10 wrap of twisted 28 will probably give you about a 1.5ohm.

Numbers and I don't get along, so I will go back to being very silent and pretending that I didn't hear the question.

[Rixter]

what does 4/3 coil mean and 5/4 coil? you know any links i can study up on all this ohms and resistance and what to use for vv/vw device. i know a tiny bit but have a ton to learn. im very interested in the vaping experience but dont know what sites and info to study from. thank a lot folks.

A 4/3 coil is one where there are 4 wraps on the outside of the coil and 3 on the inside.

You can find some pretty good coil-making info

"For Mechanical Mods, a 4/3 or even 3/2 wrap is usually nice. The less wraps we have, the LOWER the resistance. For Electronic Mods, a 6/5 wrap or even more, like 8/7, would be better. The more wraps we have, the HIGHER the resistance. Electronic VV Mods don't like LR atties..." - Uma

@Uma- I hope you don't mind me quoting you.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Rixter

[Uma]

haha, no, I don't mind at all. And it's perfectly great info, if I don't say so myself. BUT, that's as much mathematics as my mind can hold. Unfortunately, I really can't decipher the lower resistance wire (28g) + Twisted, plus wraps to equal 3.0 ohms. A WHOLE lot of wraps is all I can come up with... probably about 15?

Rixter, can you decipher?

[Rixter]

All I know is that on my meter, 1" of untwisted 32g Kanthal A-1 has ±1.4Ω of resistance, and 1" of twisted Kanthal A-1 has ±1.1Ω of resistance, so apparently, twisting the two wires together doesn't half the resistance. By those measurements, it takes about 1" of wire to make a 4/3 coil on my RBA that meters ±1.1Ω.

BTW, I've always heard that Kanthal is primarily to be used with SS wicks, and Nichrome is to be used with silica wicks...not exactly sure why, though.

[Uma]

I wonder why the different wicks call for different types of wire? I thought it was just some kind of personal preference thing. I'll have to dive deeper into that I suppose.

So, JsR, try wrapping your wick with single wire to achieve your 3.0 ohm. (guesstimating here, but I'd say about 10 wraps with the 28).

Now that you have a base to go by, twist a long strand that is longer than your single strand was by 1/4 to 1/2. Good luck getting that many strands on there though!

It would be so much easier to achieve this with 32gauge wire, because it starts out higher resistance to begin with.

The higher the resistance, the slower the action, but for some reason the flavor is usually better (depends on the variances of everything of course). I have one genny set up at 0.8 for instant gratification, another at 1.2 and yet another at 2.5. Sometimes I like a long slow relaxing draw, sometimes I want a quick puff. The flavor, if using the same flavor, will be different in each, minor, but different. I usually use different flavors in each though.

Let me ask one of my mentors your question, and I'll get back to you if/when I hear anything.

[jsr27]

thanks

[CloudWizard]

I wonder why the different wicks call for different types of wire? I thought it was just some kind of personal preference thing. I'll have to dive deeper into that I suppose.

So, JsR, try wrapping your wick with single wire to achieve your 3.0 ohm. (guesstimating here, but I'd say about 10 wraps with the 28).

Now that you have a base to go by, twist a long strand that is longer than your single strand was by 1/4 to 1/2. Good luck getting that many strands on there though!

It would be so much easier to achieve this with 32gauge wire, because it starts out higher resistance to begin with.

The higher the resistance, the slower the action, but for some reason the flavor is usually better (depends on the variances of everything of course). I have one genny set up at 0.8 for instant gratification, another at 1.2 and yet another at 2.5. Sometimes I like a long slow relaxing draw, sometimes I want a quick puff. The flavor, if using the same flavor, will be different in each, minor, but different. I usually use different flavors in each though.

Let me ask one of my mentors your question, and I'll get back to you if/when I hear anything.

Hi Uma,

Kanthal and Nichrome have different resistances/length. Kanthal is typically +10% resistance for the same length. So, on silica wicks you can get more twists with Nichome than Kanthal for the same resistance. For me, I use Kanthal on everything simply because it has a higher melting point so I pop fewer coils on ultra-LR.

On the twisted wire, resistance is a measure of how much restriction is put on the flow of electricity. Like a water pipe, the smaller the pipe the more restriction. Unlike dual coil cartos (completely independant coils - 2x 3.0Ω coils => 1.5ΩDCC) a twisted wire is touching along the whole length so you don't actually get "double the flow". It does lower the resistance to about ~2/3 (not 1/2). I haven't used twisted wires in a while instead opted for getting fatter wires. Where I used to twist 32awg, I now pretty exclusively use 28awg or 30awg. Twisted wires give a different type of flavor to me, slightly muted but also are very easy to work with and very forgiving for wrapping.

What I'm really enjoying these days is 0.6mm x 0.1mm Kanthal ribbon. I wrap it the same as 30awg/28awg: 2/3 on fat wicks and 3/4 on thinner wicks.

Let me know if I've missed the point with these responses (multi-tasking atm...)

[Uma]

Wow!! Thank you so much for this Cloud!! I needed this lesson as much as the Opening Poster. Learning the various wires, resistances, is the hardest part for a lot of us, I know I always seem to get my learning wires crossed one way or another.

Thank you very very much for taking the time to come share with us. It's mentors like you who make the learning curves bearable and the aha moments possible. You're the best!!!

[jsr27]

i could nt have said it better myself but am still lost about the wrapping thing.

[Uma]

He told me that he's never tried for 3.0 ohm with twisted 28awg, preferring the LR coils for his particular vaping setups. He suggests using a higher resistance wire to begin with, such as the 32awg, CloudWizard, Rixter, myself, all use the SS mesh wick genesis style attys, and these are a different diameter/radius to wrap than your VN. It makes it more difficult to come up with a concrete answer for you. But, with that said, he provided all the basic information needed in order to begin experimenting. Do you have 32awg available?

28awg is a low resistance wire.

Twisted wire lowers the resistance of any awg wire even more so, yet it takes a bit longer to warm up than the single strand does. It also pops less because it is stronger.

The normal 32awg wire, for instance, takes a good 6 wraps to make the VV mods happy, usually ohming in at around 2.0 to 2.5.

(depends on if the wick is thin, medium or fat). The thinner the wick, the more wraps needed.

A concrete answer calls for a VN specialist I'm afraid. Sorry.

But it was great to learn about the differences between Kanthal and Nichochrome(sp), and the different gauges of wire. Even the flat ribbon wire was introduced. This info will be, and is, important for any rebuildable type of atty.

We'll have to delve deeper into the VN underworld for a precise answer to your question.

[CloudWizard]

Ok, since you made me curious I went ahead and rebuilt a Vivi Nova Mini (same rebuildable heads as the bigger ones). I used a 5/6 of 32awg KanthalA1 on COV 3mm silica with a paperclip as a guide (it's all i have since it's what I use in my Pennies and Odys). And the verdict - 2.7Ω I used single strand wire (not twisted) or it would've come in around 1.5Ω with 5/6.

To answer the question about wraps, you'll always see folks give x/y because when you wrap a coil there is always 1 side that doesn't complete a loop. So in this case I wrapped a 5/6 meaning if you look at the top of the coil you see 6 wires and if you looked from the bottom (because the 2 tails stick down the bottom) you'd only count 5.

Lesson learned, there's not a lot of room inside the little cradle that hold the coil. 6 wide was a bit finicky as it touched the side and shorted (easy to fix by just squeezing in towards the center to compress the coil) so next time for ease of use I'd do 4/5 of 32awg and it'd come in around 2.2Ω-2.3Ω.

I did all my setup on a Vamo since I think in your original post you said that's what you're were using, decent vape @9watts :-)

Have fun building!

Edited April 3, 2013 by CloudWizard

[jsr27]

i finally get it. it usually takes me a minute for me to understand but once get it i got it! thanks a ton

[Uma]

I'm so glad this was resolved! Thank you Cloud for all your help, and for experimenting on the device itself to test it's wrapping limits. Not only is the diameter of the wick pertinent, so is the height.

I think I now know why the 3.0 ohm Viva Nova replacement heads are so impossible to find.

[BigErn]

Honestly, having used twisted Kanthal for a long while, I thought it was the bees knees. However, buy a spool of ribbon Kanthal D and I guarantee you will never want to use anything else.

[Lavafirecig]

i tried , 2 wicks or 3 wick, 4 wicks, i found that 4 wicks work best.

and with different coil, the resistance is different.

Gosh! that about 2.8 ohm works good with most batteries.

do you have the same feeling?

[VAPERMAN]

Posted this on another thread but seems useful on here too. This is a list of ohms per inch of different gauge wire. This has been a lifesaver for me trying to figure out what ohms I want to use...

Kanthal Grade ------ A-1 ------ A -------- D -------- Nichrome60 --- Nichrome80 -- Dia.in --- Dia.mm
28 awg (ohm/in) --- 0.4563 --- 0.4360 --- 0.4250 --- 0.3520 ---28--- 0.3390 ------ 0.0126 -- 0.3211 -- 28
29 awg (ohm/in) --- 0.5754 --- 0.5497 --- 0.5359 --- 0.4439 ---29--- 0.4274 ------ 0.0113 -- 0.2859 -- 29
30 awg (ohm/in) --- 0.7255 --- 0.6932 --- 0.6758 --- 0.5597 ---30--- 0.5390 ------ 0.0100 -- 0.2546 -- 30
31 awg (ohm/in) --- 0.9149 --- 0.8741 --- 0.8522 --- 0.7058 ---31--- 0.6796 ------ 0.0089 -- 0.2268 -- 31
32 awg (ohm/in) --- 1.1537 --- 1.1022 --- 1.0745 --- 0.8900 ---32--- 0.8570 ------ 0.0080 -- 0.2019 -- 32
33 awg (ohm/in) --- 1.4547 --- 1.3899 --- 1.3550 --- 1.1222 ---33--- 1.0807 ------ 0.0071 -- 0.1798 -- 33
34 awg (ohm/in) --- 1.8344 --- 1.7526 --- 1.7086 --- 1.4151 ---34--- 1.3627 ------ 0.0063 -- 0.1601 -- 34
35 awg (ohm/in) --- 2.3131 --- 2.2100 --- 2.1545 --- 1.7844 ---35--- 1.7183 ------ 0.0056 -- 0.1426 -- 35
36 awg (ohm/in) --- 2.9168 --- 2.7868 --- 2.7168 --- 2.2501 ---36--- 2.1668 ------ 0.0050 -- 0.1270 -- 36
37 awg (ohm/in) --- 3.6780 --- 3.5141 --- 3.4258 --- 2.8373 ---37--- 2.7323 ------ 0.0045 -- 0.1131 -- 37
38 awg (ohm/in) --- 4.6379 --- 4.4312 --- 4.3199 --- 3.5778 ---38--- 3.4453 ------ 0.0040 -- 0.1007 -- 38