Roundtable Discussion Lorillard Buys Blucigs

[TheSmokingMan]

It took me a few weeks in my limited spare time to transcribe this radio show to readable text. I have listened to the show so many times, I think I can quote it by heart. I'll never do this again.

I'm sure some of you are going to ask why I did all this and that it seems like a waste of time. Let me explain my motive and purpose. Most of the (new) users here do not know me, but I have been a member, active and inactive, here on VaporTalk since September of 2009. There was a time when I was very active on this forum and posted daily, among other things. I recently noticed that there is not as much traffic on the forum as there used to be, others tell me because members have either moved on or have gone to video chat and such, and do not post on the forum as much. I felt that this discussion on VP Live was a perfect opportunity to generate a serious discussion about what is going to happen to the vaping community and I have provided this transcript as tool for that discussion. So download the .pdf file, read it, formulate your own opinions, cut and paste examples of the text in you posts, etc...etc...You have my permission to do what ever you want with this text on this forum.

-TSM

Also, there may be some typo's, I apologize up front for any that you find.

Roundtable Discussion Lorillard buys Blucigs.pdf

Edited May 14, 2012 by TheSmokingMan

[TheSmokingMan]

So, Good thing or bad? Is the buyout of BluCigs by Lorillard going to help or harm the vaping community?

[Mike]

Like is said by more than one person, there is good and bad to come out of this. Personally I wish that big tobacco would never have gotten involved in the first place. I like to think of e-cigs and vaping as something that is a tobacco companies' nemesis not their compadre. It will create lots more awareness about vaping but coming from a tobacco company who is willing to believe what they have to say. I don't like it but I don't think it can hurt us, at least I hope not. Those of us who have been vaping a while already understand the whole thing but newer people might look at vaping as another one of big tobacco's big lies.

[drummerjims]

Currently I do not have the time to read the round table discussion which I will later tonight and I will comment on it. Like Mike said, it will create more awareness for vaping. At the same time it could have a walmart effect on the vaping industry. My thought is that first because big tobacco has stakes in vaping it will soon be recognized as a tobbaco product and they will tax the crap out of all of the products. By doing this the little man will no longer be able to afford to run their businesses. After this Juice will only be made black market style and they will go to the prefilled carto method which in my opinion is a waste even though I like cartomizers I like to use them until they go bad. Alot of people get into vaping because of the price of real cigarettes. I work at a volcano kiosk and this after the health benifits is one of my biggest statements to get people to convert. If people are not saving money they will be less likely to make the switch that will help their health. I just hope that all of my predictions do not come true. I guess it is time for me to invest in a repairable atty and a 50 gallon drum of nic. or I could just make the slow switch to 0mg's

[Retriever]

Most of those who I have encountered think Blu sucks as an ecig. Who know, maybe Lorillard will improved on it, but I doubt that there motives are pure. Time will tell.

[blucavvy]

of course their motives are not pure, they bought Blu to make money. period. and they will.

i've said it before and i'll say it again, this is (imo) one of the best things that could have happened to ecigs. BT has the capital to back ecigs against regulation that could drive us out of business.

i'm assuming, that bt will focus their efforts in to making a good long lasting battery, and prefilled cartomizers. that does not mean that people won't still be able to make their own juice, but expect to see the cost of nicotine skyrocket. the FDA will do everything in their power to make it difficult to diy. BT will try and make the bulk of their money in pre filled carto's.

[danpio1217]

1st things 1st, blu ecigs cater only to 1st time buyers and users. They really have no interest in putting out a product that caters to OUR needs and requests, and they know they don’t have a product that will make people stick with it. I have to imagine their profit margins are immensely higher on starter kits than prefilled carto packs, so they make more off those 1^st time buyers.

That being said there are certainly positives to be had in exposure. Keep in mind, it’s not like analogs are gonna go away and be replaced completely by ecigs. Lorillard is just adding a tool to their shed, so I don’t see drastic changes coming for quite some time. It will eventually push out some small businesses, but we live in a capitalist economy and that is fair game. I think it will only strengthen the really good businesses out there.

Also any changes made will start with the mini market. Medium sized ecigs and mods IMO will go relatively unaffected for awhile, or at least we’ll be able to see what’s coming our way with any changes to the mini market. In the long term, the big question is whether or not we'll still be able to purchase eliquid in bottle form. Many speculate that will be done away with and pre-filled cartos will be the only means of acquiring them. That would certainly drive up price, however if you know DIY i can't imagine anything could stop you from making your own ejuice. As with any rules & regulations, there are always ways around it. Just my 2 cents.

[Mike]

Rules and regulations are made by our government. The FDA and whomever else will make these laws not the tobacco company BUT with a tobacco company involved this will change the way the laws are considered. There will be a whole lot of crooked people people negotiating with a bunch of other crooked A-holes to come up with regulations and other BS to satisfy the wants of these two organizations. We are the 4% who will get very little say but we are also the 4% who know better and can't be forced to give our money back to big tobacco or to big uncle sam's taxes.

[blucavvy]

1st things 1st, blu ecigs cater only to 1st time buyers and users. They really have no interest in putting out a product that caters to OUR needs and requests, and they know they don’t have a product that will make people stick with it. I have to imagine their profit margins are immensely higher on starter kits than prefilled carto packs, so they make more off those 1^st time buyers.

That being said there are certainly positives to be had in exposure. Keep in mind, it’s not like analogs are gonna go away and be replaced completely by ecigs. Lorillard is just adding a tool to their shed, so I don’t see drastic changes coming for quite some time. It will eventually push out some small businesses, but we live in a capitalist economy and that is fair game. I think it will only strengthen the really good businesses out there.

Also any changes made will start with the mini market. Medium sized ecigs and mods IMO will go relatively unaffected for awhile, or at least we’ll be able to see what’s coming our way with any changes to the mini market. In the long term, the big question is whether or not we'll still be able to purchase eliquid in bottle form. Many speculate that will be done away with and pre-filled cartos will be the only means of acquiring them. That would certainly drive up price, however if you know DIY i can't imagine anything could stop you from making your own ejuice. As with any rules & regulations, there are always ways around it. Just my 2 cents.

i respectfully disagree on a few things.

1.) although i agree Blu is not a great ecig, that doesn't mean it doesn't work for some people. my aunt has gotten off of smokes due to Blu and is completely content with them. i'll go out on a limb and assume she's not the only one. they make plenty off their carto's. second, now that Lorillard is involved you can expect some improvement to Blu's "kit". batteries with better life, better pcc, etc... their main source of income will be their carto's. although i agree that right now their main source of income is the starter kits, i think that will change.

2.) not near enough people are giving ecigs credit where credit is due. this is not just a way to quit smoking. this is a total REPLACEMENT. Lorillard knows that. they may not be losing many customers yet, but they know it's coming, every year the ecig user population grows.....ALOT. they know it's only a matter of time, they want to buy in while they still can. on the talk show it was said it would still be MANY, MANY years before ecigs REALLY cut a large profit into traditional analogs. i see that time coming much, much sooner. prices of smokes only get worse, and lots and lots of people are starting to look for a way to continue their habit simply based on price, not health concerns.

just a few things i believe will happen. Lorillard will have to improve Blu as a product, because the other BT companies won't be far behind in buying out a "mini" company. if i was a gambling man i would bank on smokelessimage, v4l, v2 or any other well known mini. Blu can't compete with those, so Lorillard will have to make it better. 5 years from now the ecig industry will be COMPLETELY different, and we will as a community be MUCH larger than we are now. BT will have to get into the game to save their lost profits from lost customers.

[danpio1217]

Totally agree on all those points, i just mean most changes blu makes won't affect most of us, mainly b/c most of us have moved onto bigger and better things (literally lol). As a company, blu cigs has to decide what market to put most of their resources toward, and they choose to mostly focus on 1st timers, otherwise they'd have a bigger ego style battery. Instead they keep it simple with fewer products, and focus on the 'what is an ecig, how does it work, is it safe' type questions on their site. Hopefully a larger batter like an ego is in the works, i know i'd probably try it.

As for ecigs being a total replacement, i couldn't agree more. While they're both nicotine products, ecigs are a totally new and unique product without all the negativity of analogs. Big tobacco sees, big tobacco likes lol. I also agree that smokelessimage could be one of the next companies to get bought out. They have a ton of solid products and accessories. Plus, like blu, they have good brand marketing and presentation.

[blucavvy]

i (personally) think that any fat batt or mod type ecig (pv) will not be marketed much at all.....at first. what i mean when i say i think Lorillard will upgrade Blu is i mean to something more like the Volt. a good gen2 808. it's got 300-400mah, (much better than Blu's 90mah[lol]) i don't think the tobacco companies have any interest in fat batts right now. the stick style batts are what they will want the most. certainly not mods. but, obviously that's all just speculation at this point.

let's not all forget that the FDA is now considering introducing MUCH tougher regulations on ecigs, so if that goes through the market may be changing MUCH sooner than we all think....

[drummerjims]

I agree with you blu my post was just predictions. Even though I am scared of what BT can do they could do a lot of good in battery advancements. I know this may be a long shot here but could you imagine if they came out with something the size of a cigarette that could run at lets say 3.7v that could run at 1000mah it would be amazing. I myself use a lavatube ego batteries and a volt. If my auto volt ran all day without needing recharged I would never look at another pv again. Now lets say they came out with something easier to fill than a traditional carto that produces good vapor and great flavor. Why would we ever need anything more than the Juices we love. Lets just hope they don't put a ban on my fruit flavors I love so much like they did on flavored cigarettes I might have to choke a bench*** lol.

[JonHitThingWithRock]

I, for one, don't believe that the sky is falling. Strict regulations will more than likely (imo) affect the pre-filled carto / beginner packaging sector a small amount, and the niche market the rest of us live in very little, if at all, I doubt anyone in the fda even knows that you can buy an empty cartomizer and fill it yourself with juice. Keep in mind that you can still buy a bag of tobacco, a box of tubes, and an injector and make your own cigarettes for less than a dollar a pack, while pre-packaged cigarettes are around $8 a pack, depending on where you live. Broad, sweeping regulations, like the prohibition of alcohol, ultimately fail, you could still obtain alcohol illegaly or make your own until prohibition got crushed under the weight of its own stupidity. Governmet is too big and too slow to kill off e-cigs altogether, and after going through all the revisions and changes, the final bills that get passed rarely end up affecting much of anything. And with tobacco companies come lobbyists, and if tobacco companies want to make money with e-cigs, they will, because lobbyists run washington, that's why nearly everything that's passed in the last 30 years has benefited people who can afford them.

I think more and more tobacco companies will buy out e-cig companies once they see the potential profits, and the inevitable losing battle of trying to kill them, and with big tobacco companies and their lobbyists behind e-cigs, i'd be surprised not to see fda regulations wither and die, meanwhile the rest of us who buy giant devices running off enormous flashlight batteries, getting our juice from mom and pop shops will be largely unaffected while big tobacco, and big government do their silly dance.

I could be wrong, the FDA may be plotting to destroy e-cigs altogether, and big tobacco may be buying up e-cig companies only to shut them down so that their dying business model can limp along for just a little bit longer, but i severely doubt it. Free markets deliver what the people want in spite of governmet. There are already nicotine alternatives in the works for e-juice, which i'd imagine could eventually eliminate the need for nicotine in e-juice, which would nullify any fda regulation involving nicotine, and in the meantime, if big tobacco wants to join our club, make e-cigs, and profits from them, then they also bring their advertising dollars, business sense, and lobbyists, which are bigger guns than we've ever had.

So I say welcome to the party, big tobacco, bring all your friends

Edited May 16, 2012 by JonHitThingWithRock

[danpio1217]

Good point and comparison about the RYO tobacco market. I see you were probably one of those judging by your price per pack in your signature

I tried that for awhile but couldn't get the density down. The cigs were either too tight and i had to suck the you know what out of it to get a hit, or too loose and the whole thing would fall apart every time i ashed. Either way, i think we can both agree that vaping is better than either alternative

[JonHitThingWithRock]

definitely, it's all about practice and using a good machine, i started making my own during my last tour in iraq (2006-2007), so i had a lot of time to figure out how to get it just right. i was at the point when i finally quit where i could make a full pack in around 5 minutes.

[danpio1217]

Wow, impressive. That was my other beef is it took me like an hour and a half lol but as you can guess i wasn't very good at it.

Kudos #1 on quitting even tho time and cost weren't issues. I'm sure your lungs are thanking you.

And kudos #2 on serving our country!

[mjradik]

definitely, it's all about practice and using a good machine, i started making my own during my last tour in iraq (2006-2007), so i had a lot of time to figure out how to get it just right. i was at the point when i finally quit where i could make a full pack in around 5 minutes.

Yea, about 2 months before moving to ecigs, I starting making my own analogs. I cost me $1.13 per pack, and I could make a pack in under 6 minutes. I tihnk 5 minutes 31 seconds was my record. I used 'pipe' tobacco, because it was cheeper and packed better.