Box Elder Scandal

[Christopher]

Just an FYI Box Elder announced a recall on their liquid today. I think that was the right and responsible thing to do.

[Burn]

You would think so but apparently not.

You know I was thinking about something in the car today while driving home. The excuse was that the bottles where mis labeled. Not a good excuse but fine, fair enough. But here is what I was thinking...One of the 100mg bottles actually had 272mg of nicotine. So, one would assume if it was labeled incorrectly the bottle should have had a 272mg label correct? Here's the thing...they don't sell 272mg on their site. Which means they probably don't have a 272mg label. How can you mislabel a bottle of 272mg when you don't actually sell that strength.

Now if perhaps they get 300mg wholesale and cut it down, that means someone is doing a really crappy job. IE They have no idea what they're doing. Batch testing should be done and obviously it's not.

I'm not trying to smear his company but I can't help but think just how bad this could have been. It's worrying for the consumer. DIY won't be around very long at this rate.

Hate to be the baggie full of downers here but I am also not presuming that these batches were the only screwed up ones. I hope this doesn't come back to appear again as much as I hope this post isn't foreshadowing.

Good point on the mislabeled issue. I am not sure if he used that with the 272 MG batch as an excuse but the some of the other reading were unorthodox strengths so I think your point holds up.

[Burn]

No doubt. If the industry was under regulation, he'd have been shutdown for inspection along with those hefty fines. It's tough to promote self regulation with situations like this. I'm not trying to put down DIY but honestly it's just dangerous.

On the flip side I'm glad to see Nicotine testing kits made available to consumers. It really puts the checks and balances back in place. I'm hoping the DIY'ers make this a part of their mixing kits.

Yup, Christopher, I can say I have been pricing PH meters since I listened to the interview. While I am pretty sure my nic is fine, I am going to be damn sure.

[Burn]

Especially If you don't know what you are doing. But heres the Thing. Alot of suppliers, especially the 'joe-blow making ejuice for sale on the internet from his kitchen' buy from BE for thier juice. So if they got bad nic, so did all of thier customers that are not DIY. I've read on other forums about alot of people 'questioned' thier pre-made juice from different suppliers over the past 2 months.. scarry. But at least a customer who 'questions' thier juice should be smart enough to stop vaping before it goes to far..

DIYrs might be think they are working with 50 mg, and take no special precautions, but really it150 or so.. One bad mistake/spill on skin, not enough ventiliation, etc... that is easily lethal.

Another great point and the exact reason I have always limited myself to 60MG base. It really isnt that much less expensive for 100MG or at least not cheap enough to bring that into a home where I have 2 small kids and a wife I want to keep around. I think most DIYers have a healthy respect for what they are doing but just playing the percentages of human nature there are sure to be a few careless souls that are just asking for trouble.

A few of my "practices":

Always have an open door or window nearby

Every element goes into a sink/basin/controlled area before removing caps of anything, including flavors

Never take anything out of the control area until it is complete and sealed

Wear gloves

Wash area thoroughly

(for me) only do it when nobody is in the house and I am not going to be distracted and walk away or forget what step I was on

add the base first to the mixing container and put the base away before next step.

I mix 200-300ML finished solution at a time so I am only mixing 2-3 times a year

Being the tallest in my house, I am the only one who can reach any liquid/supplies without a step stool and the cabinet is locked.

It may seem excessive to some but those steps are what I consider a "healthy respect" for the materials being used. I haven't messed up yet and I remind myself it is only a missed step away.

[Jeffb]

BE's email from yesterday 11/19/2011:

Hello Everyone,

Due to recent indications by the public of high Box Elder nicotine strengths, we are issuing a product recall for any bottle of unflavored e-liquid that have been purchased between May and August 2011. We are investigating this problem to the fullest extent possible and we regret to inform you that we will not be selling nicotine products on Box Elder Chemical Supply until we can fully verify the nature and source of this problem. We are very sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you however, we are convinced that for our customers, company and industry, that a recall is the safest course of action due to the nature of this product.

We humbly request that if you have purchased a bottle of unflavored e-liquid from us between May and August 2011, that you place the bottle in a zip-lock plastic bag and mail it back to us.

We do ask that before you ship a product back to us that you contact us at customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com or call 888-962-5877.

Please have the date of purchase or the order ID number and we will be more than willing to issue a Return Merchandise Authorization Number.

We also ask that if you return a product to us that you do so via the US Postal Service and that you send the product via Flat Rate Priority Mail to the following address:

Brad Bacher

1170 Sycamore Dr.

Brigham City, Utah

84302

Any refunds will be issued within 24 hours of the date of an arrival of product back to our facility and will include the cost of return

shipping if Flat Rate Priority Mail is used. We apologize for this problem and thank you for your attention on this matter.

[Gamera]

Right Jeff. Every industry has to do QC testing. If you make anything from drugs to toys you need to ensure that you are producing what people are paying for. That goes double for something that is potentially harmful. Also the mislabeling makes no sense. Say you are producing ink. You are making blue for a specific type of press. You punch up a formulation and then weight the ingredients like a cake and mix them and then label them. You then run tests on the outgoing batch to ensure everything you did was correct and won't mess anything up. You also monitor incoming batches of product used to make your ink. That way it ensures that the formulation you are using is the same as it was the day before and so on.

You also either deliver an implicit guarantee that your product is what it says it is, or you deliver a certificate of analysis showing it to be that way. You keep a history of these things so you can track what you have made in case there is a problem you can answer it quickly. The fact that these people haven't done this little bit is scary. This kinda crap seems to happen when businesses like this sort of thing are in it's infancy. Growing pains if you will and then the market regulates, until it gets out of control someone gets hurt and then the government steps in. I'm not sure regulation is a bad thing if screw ups like this continue to happen.

Right Chris and Jeff. Every industry has to do QC testing. If you make anything from drugs to toys you need to ensure that you are producing what people are paying for. That goes double for something that is potentially harmful. Also the mislabeling makes no sense. Say you are producing ink. You are making blue for a specific type of press. You punch up a formulation and then weight the ingredients like a cake and mix them and then label them. You then run tests on the outgoing batch to ensure everything you did was correct and won't mess anything up. You also monitor incoming batches of product used to make your ink. That way it ensures that the formulation you are using is the same as it was the day before and so on.

You also either deliver an implicit guarantee that your product is what it says it is, or you deliver a certificate of analysis showing it to be that way. You keep a history of these things so you can track what you have made in case there is a problem you can answer it quickly. The fact that these people haven't done this little bit is scary. This kinda crap seems to happen when businesses like this sort of thing are in it's infancy. Growing pains if you will and then the market regulates, until it gets out of control someone gets hurt and then the government steps in. I'm not sure regulation is a bad thing if screw ups like this continue to happen.

[Uma]

Do the DIY tester kits also test the ready to vape flavored bottles we've bought from vendors?

[Christopher]

Do the DIY tester kits also test the ready to vape flavored bottles we've bought from vendors?

It tests nicotine levels. So from what I understand, any bottle containing nicotine. DIY or not. Keep in mind that pre mixed liquid (IE Vapor Talk) is usually -+ MG.

[mjradik]

Do the DIY tester kits also test the ready to vape flavored bottles we've bought from vendors?

Yes it will, BUT, the DIY test kits test the PH of the eliquid. If vendors use strong acids in thier flavors, then it lowers the PH, then makes the readings lower than actuall, or not register at all. The test is designed for unflavord nic, but MANY people have tested it with pre made eliquid, and only a select few have back as altered/low results. And no I don't have a list or know which ones. Normally fruit flavors I believe, if they use real citric acid.

[Gamera]

Why would a pH test measure nicotine level? Also mjradik is kinda correct about the overall pH of the liquid. Although if nicotine has a certain pH I'm not sure that the citric acid or whatever adjuncts would have an effect on the overall pH of the solution. In other words there are strong acids and weak acids. Their relative pH could be similar but strength and concentration be different. One would have to consult a food chemist to know how the other products might effect the overall pH.