StringDancer

A great thread here.

Now, I'm all for safety, and feel the FDA should get off its butt and begin scientific, non-biased studies of ecigs. I'm not interested in the typical "study" paid for by corporate interests on either side of the ecig fence... I'd like to see real research NOT driven by market agendas.

Packaging can be managed, as Chris has done with the child-proof caps. But there is only so much a manufacturer can do to ensure safety when dealing with a potentially toxic product. Just because e-juice holds the potential of poisoning a person or pet does not mean it shouldn't be sold, and is no justification for keeping it off the market. Were that the case, then we shouldn't have access to many household, garage and industrial products either, which is clearly absurd and way too "nanny-state" for me.

As for nicotine itself... well, I'm on the side of personal liberty here. Adults are responsible for their choices, and if they want to smoke, it's their funeral. If vapers want to continue vaping and NOT use ecigs as a cessation path, it's their choice as well. Nicotine is often likened to caffeine in terms of negative health effects. Simply changing the delivery system for nicotine from burning leaves to something as benign (we assume) as vaping is a giant step forward in and of itself (based on all available data and vaper testimonials). Common sense tells us (well... me, anyway) that vaping is less harmful by orders of magnitude. Unless and until real data surfaces to suggest otherwise, I personally have no problem with substituting vaping for smoking and feeling pretty good about it.

Coffee drinkers, alcohol drinkers, drug users, food addicts (addicts of every stripe, for that matter) make their choices and must deal with the consequences, and I would argue that the government should have no say in those choices. Prohibition should have taught us that personal behavior can only be encouraged, not mandated and controlled by legislation (no matter how well-intended), because such hard-fisted attempts at social control simply don't work, and is counter to the concept of personal liberty and subsequent responsibility.

We are constantly being told what to do, but much less emphasis is placed on why we should do it. If but a fraction of the money spent on the so-called "war on drugs" had been spent on comprehensive, un-biased education of our youth on the science and traditional uses of various substances, on the cultural backdrop of the peoples who have used substances (I'm thinking specifically of Native American substance use and the accompanying spiritual ceremony here), we would have much less of a drug problem today. Native Americans used substances for specific reasons, at specified times, with specific ceremony and meaning infused into the practice. Such conscious and purposeful use of substances has all but disappeared. Back in the 60s and early 70s, the reasons behind why hippies used various drugs were entirely different than the what-the-hell party atmosphere we see today. There's such a thing as responsible, purposeful substance use, and then there's drug abuse. I may take some flack for that stand, but I was there, and I've seen the degrading cultural milieu surrounding the use of substances over the years first-hand. It didn't have to be that way, but the government's "do what we say but we won't educate you as to why you should do it" approach has only led to further inappropriate use of substances. Again... education is the answer, not legislation.

Perhaps that rant seems a bit off-topic, but I'm inclined to say it isn't. What is true of our dysfunctional approach to substance use is certainly true of our similarly bone-headed approach to cigarettes and tobacco use generally.

That's enough for now. I'm spent. lol

A great thread here.

Now, I'm all for safety, and feel the FDA should get off its butt and begin scientific, non-biased studies of ecigs. I'm not interested in the typical "study" paid for by corporate interests on either side of the ecig fence... I'd like to see real research NOT driven by market agendas.

Packaging can be managed, as Chris has done with the child-proof caps. But there is only so much a manufacturer can do to ensure safety when dealing with a potentially toxic product. Just because e-juice holds the potential of poisoning a person or pet does not mean it shouldn't be sold, and is no justification for keeping it off the market. Were that the case, then we shouldn't have access to many household, garage and industrial products either, which is clearly absurd and way too "nanny-state" for me.

As for nicotine itself... well, I'm on the side of personal liberty here. Adults are responsible for their choices, and if they want to smoke, it's their funeral. If vapers want to continue vaping and NOT use ecigs as a cessation path, it's their choice as well. Nicotine is often likened to caffeine in terms of negative health effects. Simply changing the delivery system for nicotine from burning leaves to something as benign (we assume) as vaping is a giant step forward in and of itself (based on all available data and vaper testimonials). Common sense tells us (well... me, anyway) that vaping is less harmful by orders of magnitude. Unless and until real data surfaces to suggest otherwise, I personally have no problem with substituting vaping for smoking and feeling pretty good about it.

Coffee drinkers, alcohol drinkers, drug users, food addicts (addicts of every stripe, for that matter) make their choices and must deal with the consequences, and I would argue that the government should have no say in those choices. Prohibition should have taught us that personal behavior can only be encouraged, not mandated and controlled by legislation (no matter how well-intended), because such hard-fisted attempts at social control simply don't work, and is counter to the concept of personal liberty and subsequent responsibility.

We are constantly being told what to do, but much less emphasis is placed on why we should do it. If but a fraction of the money spent on the so-called "war on drugs" had been spent on comprehensive, un-biased education of our youth on the science and traditional uses of various substances, on the cultural backdrop of the peoples who have used substances (I'm thinking specifically of Native American substance use and the accompanying spiritual ceremony here), we would have much less of a drug problem today. Native Americans used substances for specific reasons, at specified times, with specific ceremony and meaning infused into the practice. Such conscious and purposeful use of substances has all but disappeared. Back in the 60s and early 70s, the reasons behind why hippies used various drugs were entirely different than the what-the-hell party atmosphere we see today. There's such a thing as responsible, purposeful substance use, and then there's drug abuse. I may take some flack for that stand, but I was there, and I've seen the degrading cultural milieu surrounding the use of substances over the years first-hand. It didn't have to be that way, but the government's "do what we say but we won't educate you as to why you should do it" approach has only led to further inappropriate use of substances. Again... education is the answer, not legislation.

Perhaps that rant seems a bit off-topic, but I'm inclined to say it isn't. What is true of our dysfunctional approach to substance use is certainly true of our similarly bone-headed approach to cigarettes and tobacco use generally.

That's enough for now. I'm spent. lol

Here's an article I saved some time ago regarding the inventor of the ecig:

A high-tech approach to getting a nicotine fix
The electronic cigarette -- a gadget that looks like the real thing and delivers nicotine without smoke -- is established in China, and companies are taking aim at the U.S. market.
By Barbara Demick
April 25, 2009

Reporting from Beijing -- Hon Lik used to light up first thing in the morning. He smoked between lectures at the university where he studied Oriental medicine, between bites at lunch, in the lab where he researched ginseng health products. He'd usually burn through two packs by dusk and smoke a third over dinner and drinks with colleagues.

It wasn't until his father, also a heavy smoker, died of lung cancer that Hon finally kicked the habit.

Hon's story could be that of any other nicotine-addicted, middle-aged man in China, where 60% of the men smoke. What distinguishes the 52-year-old pharmacist and inventor is that he found inspiration in the addiction.



One of the strangest gizmos to come out of China in recent years, Hon's invention, the electronic cigarette, turns the adage "where there's smoke there's fire" on its head.

It doesn't burn at all. Instead, it uses a small lithium battery that atomizes a liquid solution of nicotine. What you inhale looks like smoke, but it's a vapor similar to stage fog. (Take that, smoke-free bars!) It even has a red light at the tip that lights up with each drag.

"It's a much cleaner, safer way to inhale nicotine," said Hon, blowing curlicues of e-smoke as he showed off the cigarette in his Beijing office. (He says he doesn't smoke anymore, except for such demonstrations.)

Hon got his first patent on the e-cigarette in 2003 and introduced it to the Chinese market the next year. The company he worked for, Golden Dragon Holdings, was so inspired that it changed its name to Ruyan (meaning "like smoke") and started selling abroad.

This year, it's planning a big push in the United States. A disposable e-cigarette called the Jazz ($24.95 for the equivalent of five packs) is due to hit 7-Elevens in the Dallas-Fort Worth area shortly. Many rival versions, all made in China, are making their way to the U.S., sold mostly over the Internet by small marketing firms.

Unlike nicotine patches and gum, electronic cigarettes are designed to be fun. There are regulars and menthols, as well as chocolate and strawberry. A company in Japan is selling one that is charged by the USB port of a computer.

The e-cigarettes aren't marketed as a way to quit smoking, but as a smoking alternative.

"It's safe smoking -- like smoking with a condom on," said William Taskas, a Canadian distributor who is marketing a product called Smoke- Stik.

What makes the electronic cigarette more than just the latest curiosity from China is the enthusiasm it has inspired among respected anti-tobacco activists.

"This is exactly what the tobacco companies have been afraid of all these years, an alternative method of delivering nicotine that is actually enjoyable," said David Sweanor, an adjunct law professor at the University of Ottawa who specializes in tobacco issues. "It took the Chinese, who are very entrepreneurial, and not burdened with all kinds of regulation, to take the risk."

Even without smoke or fire, electronic cigarettes are sparking controversy. Australia, Canada and Hong Kong have banned them on the grounds that they have not been sufficiently tested for safety.

"The way they were being sold, there was no control. A kid could buy it and take too many puffs. You could overdose on nicotine," said Ronald Lam, tobacco control chief of the health department in Hong Kong, where 800 shops were raided last month and the entire e-stash confiscated.

The Food and Drug Administration last month confiscated shipments from three Chinese companies on the grounds they were making false health claims. The agency said in a recent letter to prospective importers of electronic cigarettes that it had not decided on their legality, but was "evaluating them on a case-by-case basis."

Although they're not kicking Marlboro off the shelves in China, the electronic cigarettes have a small but loyal following.

"They're quite popular with both men and women," said Sun Shujuan, a clerk at the tobacco counter of the Beijing City Department Store. Each day, she sells one or two of the reusable cigarettes (a $145 appliance), and a much larger number of the replacement cartridges, which run $9 for the equivalent of five packs of cigarettes. "We have many repeat customers."

Chinese smokers complain that the electronic cigarettes are expensive (most brands here are still less than $1 a pack) and can't be easily shared. In China, cigarettes are the essential lubricant for opening a conversation -- the smoke offered to the cop who has pulled you over, the pack held open by a salesman approaching a prospect.

"What is the point of having cigarettes if you can't give one to a friend?" said Liu Hai, who works as a driver and lives in Chengdu, in Sichuan province.

The United States is considered a far more promising market because of the higher price of cigarettes and the prohibition on smoking in many indoor spaces.

"When you're in Minneapolis in the winter, it's a lot more attractive to spend $24.95 on an electronic cigarette than it is to go out to smoke where it is 20 degrees below," said Alex Chong, chief executive of Ruyan America, the Minneapolis-based U.S. affiliate of Hon's company.

E-cigarettes are already sold legally in some British pubs, where smoking is banned.

Even though the devices are not yet widely available in the United States, the battle lines are being drawn.

The electronic cigarette marketers refrain from calling e-cigarettes a smoking-cessation aid -- in part because under U.S. law, if they made any health claims, they would be subject to FDA approval.

Bill Godshall, head of Smokefree Pennsylvania, estimates that at least 100,000 electronic cigarettes have been sold in the United States. (The gizmo got a boost last month when Leonardo DiCaprio was photographed smoking one on a bicycle.)

"You have these abstinence-only extremists who want to eradicate all nicotine product. But as you've seen, whether we're talking about sex or alcohol or nicotine, abstinence doesn't really work," said Godshall, who has collected 4,000 signatures on a petition to allow e-cigarettes to be legally sold in the United States.

Chong, of Ruyan America, said his company was willing to put its product up for safety testing to win U.S. regulatory approval but not immediately, explaining that it is a $20-million, three-year process. He said that seven laboratories the company commissioned to test the product found no dangerous level of chemicals.

Inventor Hon says the idea of the electronic cigarettes came to him in a dream in 2000: Coughing and wheezing, he imagined he was drowning, until suddenly the waters around him lifted into a fog.

He gave one of the first prototypes to his dying father.

"It was too late for my father, but not for me. I switched over myself to electronic cigarettes."

I was doing a holiday gig the other night at a friend's restaurant in Nashville, Indiana. He throws one every year for his closest friends and business acquaintances, and he hired me to provide some nice guitar music for the evening. I had gotten him using an ecig months ago, and he allows ecig use in his establishment.

So I had finished my set, and sat down at my table with a few other folks. I pulled out my ecig and was puffing away, and as usual some folks who had never heard of an ecig asked questions, which I answered.

One lady asked, "is there nicotine in the vapor". I said, "no it's only water vapor". Well, she began to get a bit agitated, saying that she has a hypersensitivity to nicotine, that even trace amounts could give her palpitations or something. "If there's any nicotine at all in the vapor, I can't be around it. How can there be nicotine in the juice and not have trace amounts in the vapor?"

Well, I immediately saw what I was dealing with, and putting the ecig in my pocket, told her no problem. My opinions about her hypersensitivity aside, I'm wondering if there is any science regarding the exhaled vapor and whether or nor ALL the nic is absorbed by the user. Anyone?

I've got two 510s, and the old one (almost 5 months now) is still sporting the original atty and one battery from the original pair. Yet to have an atty burn out with 'em, and for that reason alone am very impressed with the 510. Vapor production, to me, is still better on a well-tempered penstyle, but as others have noted, I'll go through 2-3 penstyle atomizers a month and as many batts or more, so the endurance (and consistency) of penstyles leave a lot to be desired. I think you get better flavor hit from a 510, as well. Seems to carry the flavor onto the palette better than do penstyles.

Batts on the 510 seem to have a decent shelf life, but I can suck one of those puppies dry in an hour or less, which isn't bad, I suppose, since they also charge quickly... but still, switching batts so often is a nuisance. Would like to try a larger battery assembly of some kind with a 510 atty.

A dear friend, business partner and crazy good visual artist (I added a DSE801 to his original drawing of the six-eyed goon to make my avatar) and non-smoker came up to me the other day and said, "Jeff, I want to take you to meet my sister-in-law, who's been a smoker all her life, and it's taking a toll... I want her to learn about your e-cig." Of course I said yes. We arranged a meeting a couple days ago, and I picked up my buddy and traveled the few miles over to his brother's home. I brought along a brand new 801 starter kit just in case.

Well, we've all seen ladies who have been hard-core smokers for decades. This sweet woman is of average height, but if she weighs 90 lbs I'd be surprised. Her face was ashen, gaunt and weathered from a lifetime of smoking. Her husband, my buddy's brother, is concerned for her health... the whole family is. She's in her 60s, maybe, but she has that worn-down, prematurely aged look that long-term smokers can get.

She's one of those devoted tobacco addicts (I know the type, because I was one of them) who know the risks, but love their tobacco and all the ritual that goes along with it, and in spite of everything (or anybody) would smoke to the end. After I showed her the ropes and got the e-cig up and vaping for her, she seemed encouraged that this device might actually make a difference in her life. She took the starter kit, and I threw in some JC 24mg Tennessee Cured juice, figuring a nice strong tobacco flavor will encourage her to vape. Time will tell.

On the way back to my buddy's place, he was quiet for awhile as we twisted my Blazer through the rolling hills of southern Indiana. Then he said, in that quiet artist's voice of his, "Jeff, do you realize that you may have just saved her life?"

We who have transitioned from analogs to e-juice have, at present (or until the damned FDA decides to indulge the lobbyists and finish their ill-conceived crusade against e-cigs) an opportunity to rack up some seriously good karma by introducing our smoker friends and family to e-cigs. Now, what I did was nothing special in the sense that many (perhaps most) of the vapers on this site have also introduced people to e-cigs and helped them to begin, at least, a transition to a healthier way of life. But my buddy's question brought it all home to me. Here's a woman, his sister-in-law of many decades, a beloved member of his family, with whom he has long and deep ties, and he's hoping and praying that she takes to e-cigs and can make the transition to vaping.

It made me happy to make the introduction, of course. But... if she has the will to modify her inhaliatory habit a bit and take up vaping full-time, it'll do much more than just make my buddy and his brother happy. They will be ecstatic, and will remember my trip over to their house as the day I saved her life. Nevermind that it is actually SHE who must do the saving... that's just the way we humans perceive and recall little events like this.

We're not mere salespeople out to make a buck here. Unlike virtually any product we can name, e-cigs hold the potential to save countless lives from a nearly certain unfortunate end. In addition, the more people we can recruit as vaping converts, the more testimonials we can help create by promoting e-cigs to smokers... all this leads to more voices that will rise in defiance, distrust and disdain for the machinations of governmental indulgence of well-financed lobbyists and anti-smoker fanatics, and the greater our chances of seeing this delightful little device spread across the nation as the new, improved and preferred paradigm for inhaliatory pleasure.

So if you can, the next time you buy a starter kit for yourself, consider buying a spare to resell or give to a friend. Toss in an extra atty, throw in a small bottle of good tobacco-flavored juice, teach them the ins and outs of vaping so they don't have to learn things the hard way as many of us had to do. Our government, corrupted by money, influence and a near-total disregard for the truth, will not give us this wonderful alternative to smoking willingly... we must demand it vociferously and in great numbers. When we turn a smoker to vaping, their family also becomes an ally in the coming struggle, as they see for themselves the positive changes vaping makes in the life of their loved one, and by extension, in theirs.

Given the nature of a legislative government body bought and paid for by corporate dollars, we the people will always eventually lose the liberties we do not insist upon retaining. When the great national debate over e-cigs begins, we'll want as many vapers bitching like banshees as possible. Our chances of success will be greatly enhanced if we can crank up the volume.