abitmorevodka

(Not arguing with you, just thinking out loud...) Higher levels of nicotine can cause a lot of those same symptoms, much like caffeine or many cold meds, etc. I'm just wondering if they could test for some of the other chemicals (at roughly the same price as a nic-check), to see if someone is actually smoking tobacco. If I'm ONLY vaping or using some form of NRT, (i.e., not getting any of the "bad stuff" I'd be getting if I were smoking), I'm not doing anything to put myself at a higher risk for the usual smoking-related diseases. I'd like to see a comparison done between, say vaping or using a nicotine gum, and spending a lot of time in the sun or in a tanning bed, for instance. But, I digress... If I'm only using nicotine why should an employer not hire me or fire me for doing so if I'm not posing a significant risk to myself or others? And/or, why should I have to keep paying a higher insurance premium if I'm no longer a smoker? Why am I yappin' when I should be going to bed? Probably not making a bit of sense, LOL...

Here's another hospital who will not hire nicotine users and will fire existing employees who use nicotine: article link here. I thought you'd want to know. This is a troubling trend, to say the least. Now it's the hospitals, you know companies will be following shortly. With national healthcare looming, it could eventually work it's way down to the individual. If nicotine in and of itself is not harmful, health insurers and employers still test for nicotine only in order to determine whether or not a person is a smoker. What if that person does NOT smoke cigarettes, but ingests/absorbs nicotine in some other fashion? How does that person raise medical costs for the company? (Unless things have changed in the last few years, one was not asked questions such as "Are you a smoker?" when signing up for a GROUP policy...) As for an individual policy, it doesn't matter if you've not smoked a real cigarette in six months or so, if you go to your insurer and tell them you're no longer a smoker and would like your rates reduced, please, they will test you for the presence of nicotine only. You will not get a rate reduction. Is there any other way to test someone to see whether or not they're a smoker without just testing for nicotine?

Well I can discuss something with you, agree or disagree w/o railing on ya'. :-) I say the burden of proof is on the FDA b/c they started making all these claims. Burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. I'm actually with you on the fascist state. How 'bout a soft tyranny quickly moving towards a totalitarian state? :-) Never would've believed it... Anyway, let's not forget personal responsibility. If you're pregnant or have other medical conditions, don't use it until you can find out what kind of effect it will or could have on you. Approval by the FDA takes many, many years and costs millions upon millions of dollars. The FDA has become too big and too mired down in red tape to properly perform it's job. We'd be better off having some private organization doing random testing. However, maybe we've become too mired in the details ourselves. There was a line in the very first post, something about the FDA siding with the tobacco companies over the health of smokers/vapers. THAT is a strong statement and position. Isn't that what it comes down to? I'll just throw this idea out there. We're brainstorming, right? What if we totally divorced vaping from nicotine? Go to no-nic juice. (I don't know, some companies could still offer the nic juice and let THAT be regulated if necessary.) I think that might be an option that would rock them back on their heels. If one didn't want to smoke and vape, it would help immensely to be able to vape no-nic while wearing a patch or whatever. Nothing else addresses the hand-to-mouth and - let's face it - the "addiction" if you will to the smoke/vapor itself. No wonder they have such a dismal success rate. It's NOT all about the nicotine. I think we associate a lot of behavioral actions with the reward of getting the nicotine fix. Over time our brain doesn't separate them out. I might still be getting the nicotine, but the other "good" things aren't getting satisfied. I'm 52 years old. I've tried it all. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on NRT drugs, methods, etc., etc.. I tried all three anti-depressants. I came close to committing suicide while on Chantix. Luckily, I asked myself WHY I was feeling that way. The only thing that had changed lately was I had started taking the Chantix, so I quit taking it. A few weeks later, the FDA came out with the Chantix warnings. I could have been dead before they came out with those warnings about their "approved" drug. So, this is extremely personal for me. I don't want to see the industry have to go no-nic, but if that's what would save it, it would be better than no vaping industry at all. But maybe that's what it will come down to in court AND in the eye of the public: Who's best interest does the FDA have at heart? The tobacco and pharmaceutical industries or the American people? Also, let me throw this out there... Since I started vaping, I not only don't eat as much (I think getting the flavors tells my brain I'm eating or something), but when I eat, I actually CRAVE salads and fresh fruit. I practically eat salad or fruit for every meal. So, vaping - at least for me - has led to a healthier lifestyle in several ways. I never experienced this when smoking cigs. Wow, I "talked" a lot. I've been up a really long time, so sorry. Probably time to start thinking about going to bed. :-) Teresa

I do NOT think ecigs, juice, etc. should be banned until studied. People die every day from side effects of FDA-studied-and-approved drugs. The FDA has grown too big and too powerful. Their regulations fill volumes, much like the tax code. I'm tired of the government telling me what I can or can't do with my own body. We'd be a lot better off having some private organization randomly testing juices, etc. It's in the companies' best interest NOT to allow anything in that shouldn't be in there because we'll stop buying from that company. Also, I don't want them telling me I can't make my own juice. Let's face it, we're living under a soft tyranny. The EPA regulated carbon - air, if you will. They've taken over water for crying out loud and are talking about banning "recreational fishing." Healthcare? What a scam. That would give them total control over our bodies, who gets treatment and who doesn't. Congress talking about acting like they passed a bill that's never been written or voted on. Totally against the Constitution. You can't use logic or reason when dealing with these people. They're going to do whatever they want to do. Period. I think our best hope is to keep getting information out to the public, tell them our stories. It's not much, I know... Stossel did a show on the FDA around March 4. It's worth taking a look at. If it's not on YouTube, you can probably find it on the Fox Business channel website.

Well said, Newbie, well said.

Welcome, Newbie! (I'm still fairly new here, too.) I haven't found one tobacco flavor I like. Probably never really liked it when I smoked analogs but equated it with all the good things we liked about smoking that we can now get and have it taste good... The whole flavors = kids thing is screwed up. Total propaganda, in my opinion. If you're a teen, ya' can't look cool smoking bubblegum flavor or blueberry! If the fruity flavors sound good to ya', a LOT of people seem to like watermelon. I tend to stick with flavors that taste good with coffee. The last few hours I've been vaping chocolate (tastes more like cocoa; it's a beautiful thing), while drinking coffee (of course), and playing Queen very loudly. Life is good...

Hey! I work really HARD to be a vapor vacuum, LOL! We vapor vacuums also notice a metallic taste when the atomizer needs to (ugh, work) be cleaned, too. It usually gets harder to draw, too. Had that happen just last night. After even a quick & dirty cleaning, the metallic taste was gone. Teresa, Pushing the Vaping Envelope

Why would you not have a problem with them regulating production? (Just playing devil's advocate.) I feel the ecig community is fully capable of regulating itself. The companies themselves have a vested interest in producing a clean product. No one's more concerned about the safety than those of us who use the juice. If they regulate juice (and the costs to comply with FDA regs are enormous!), chances are it will be illegal to make your own or to buy some of the ingredients...

---------------- Well, that's the point, isn't it? They're trying to regulate this without any studies being done. Not that they need anything like real science or even logic to regulate anything. (Look how the EPA just regulated carbon dioxide.) This would have been just another regulation passed if it hadn't been challenged. Nicotine's been around a long time, it's not like it's a new substance or drug. These studies cost a lot of money and take a long time. The cost of such and the burden of proof should be on the FDA. I meant the federal government, of which the FDA is a part, all the way down to the states and a lot of local governments will jump on the tax bandwagon, and jump they will. First they demonize it (equate ecigs with eeeevil cigarettes!), then they tax it and most don't bother protesting it any more than they protested the latest tobacco tax increase. I don't know if they should try to change the rules in the middle of the game. It sounds as if they had absolutely no proof in the trial. I don't know how they think taking this case before an appelate court will actually help them, unless they're just trying to bully they two companies into dropping the suit rather than face the legal expenses. We're currently living under a soft tyranny and this is what happens. It's all very depressing...

I'm with you, Doc. How many of us started using ecigs b/c of all the bans? Besides, it's the government and right now it's currently on steroids. Give them an inch... Teresa

Let me muddy the waters even more... 1. BE WARNED: If the FDA gains ANY regulation over these, the sky's the limit. That's how they operate. IF they don't ban them outright, they'll have to regulate production of everything which will raise the costs to unheard of levels, then they'll tax them on top of that. At some point, one will have to have a special license to sell any ecig products and they'll ban all flavors except tobacco (and I hate the tobacco flavors.) 2. So what if I'm addicted to nicotine as long as I'm not getting my "fix" by smoking regular cigarettes? Is a nicotine addiction any more harmful to the general welfare of society than a caffeine addiction? Why should nicotine be regulated when caffeine isn't? 3. What if I choose to vape no-nic liquid? (I often do.) Why should the FDA be concerned about that? 4. I'm against the under-18 thing on principle, however, I'd be willing to cede that. However, if a minor decides to smoke it won't be b/c of advertising or flavors, it's b/c of peer pressure. The whole "it's for the kids" thing is a ruse. If a minor is going to smoke, I'd much rather them use an ecig rather than a real cig. And they continue to smoke in spite of all the laws and regulations. 5. Are ecigs any more dangerous than anything else (FDA-approved, of course), in my medicine cabinet? 6. I've been a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen all of my life. If the FDA continues in this silly war against ecigs I will either be condemned to die of a tobacco-related disease (assuming I don't get hit by a concrete truck), OR I'll be forced to become a criminal when my only "crime" was trying to stop using regular cigarettes when all else had failed. Teresa

Well... I replied to you but it showed up a couple of posts later instead of under your post. Oh well, I'll learn my way around here before long. Teresa

Hey Pam, I'll be following the blue foam thingy, too. Sometimes it's just a hassle to drip, or having to stop and top off, depending on what I'm doing. Other times, having to fool with it is part of the experience. This sounds promising, though. Beautiful dog. I lived near you, between Smithville & Leslie - out in the swamps, for about 10 years. Still own property down that way. I was just talking about missing AJ's Seafood the other night... Teresa