Christopher

I completely agree on the packaging and should have mentioned that in my paragraph also. I've always considered that common sense but you're right in that some manufactures really push the boundaries. When I was in Shanghai there was some liquid being sold that looked exactly like the Nesquik containers. There's really no need for that at all. As for the hardware, again I really don't see the logic behind this. The RC industry for example uses a lot of the same batteries we do in our mods, I can't help but wonder how it'll affect that industry. I just can't see RC manufactures and retailers applying for multimillion dollar hardware applications. It's which I mentioned early in the thread that I believe they may be forced to put systems/checks in place to ensure their products aren't being sold for use in "tobacco" applications. EDIT: Attached a picture of the packaging... (That's eliquid... note the 3MG on the upper right box. That was actually imported from the states)

If the PMTA guidelines are any indication I'd say they don't care at all. The thing is, I think most vendors are completely ok with regulation. Ingredient analysis, child safety conformity, age verification and submission of facility inspection to me are all reasonable requests. In fact I'd say at this point it's almost vital with some of the questionable mixers out in the wild. (I know this is not widely agreed on) But 1 million per application? At least. And to make matters worse if you fail the processes, you have to start again and pay the fee again. Not to mention the FDA still hasn't provided an easy step by step process for your average vendor to comply. They released a 400 page document of more questions. On the flip side you've got Europe. They have TPD in effect (something we're currently going through now) and while it does incur a number of expenses it's much more reasonable. The process is well documented step by step even for the newest of business owners. In other words, Europe wants regulation but without sacrificing newly established business. They understand a number of these businesses are regular folks who walked into a new industry. NHS also sees the potential savings in smokers switching to e-cigarettes. They provide easy to understand documentation and just this morning I had an email and phone call from the European Commission's office assisting us with our application. (We made an entry mistake). That's really the example in my opinion of how things should be done. While TPD isn't an easy process, it's doable for any business or business owner that makes the effort. Additionally at a cost of under 50k depending on your situation and the amount of product you're trying to obtain compliance on. The US needs jobs. We're not Google or Microsoft but we've got investors hoping on board with Vapor Talk. It would be awesome to open new offices in California and New York hiring at least 10-30 people. Then you have the natural ecosystem supporting the business (box maker's, label providers, art firms, the postal service, fedex, web hosting, the list goes on). If we fail PMTA we're not going to close, we'll just be forced to run our operations in Asia and Europe. What a load of crap.

If that bill was to pass, it would have a major effect on the current market. Though I try to stay on top of all this much as possible (it's difficult) it's my understanding that essentially anything introduced to the market prior to August 8th (which is basically everything available as of yesterday) would not be subject to the PMTA guidelines. Additionally, I suspect that any new products could likely claim "substantial equivalent" making new products easier to process through PMTA guidelines. That would be huge... Black Label for example, would not need the 6 million in capital we're currently attempting to budget from investors. Instead we'd likely use that to expand our retail store and hire a ton of new jobs. EDIT: In case anyone wants to view the current status of this bill, you can Click Here. Though it has 71 cosponsors, it hasn't had any movement since April of 2015.

Welcome

That I'm not sure off, though Roger likely would. And I think that's the case with most "manufactures" (which is really mostly small outfits) There are some great liquid mixers out there who have done a really great job of self regulating. The are others that have... they just shouldn't be mixing in the first place. But regardless, I'm sure we'll see some solid folks close shop in the next couple years if not soon. You know on the flip side though, we had a meeting last week with some of our outside vendors and some good points came up about the lawsuits coming into play. It wasn't just 5 years + back that we were having similar issues when Smoking Everywhere up and sued the FDA. They went broke doing it I believe, then NJOY took over. Much of the reason we're all vaping today is a direct result of the lawsuit NJOY carried forward. So you never know what changes could happen moving forward. (As for the March, any march is a good march!)

You know to be perfectly honestly with you, I don't think this is all on big tobacco. I think there are many that want to point the blame but in fact Alteria recently spoke out against the PMTA guidelines. (Who knows though that could just be a PR spin) What I suspect is the FDA probably has a big hand in this on their own. Flexing their new found muscle if you will. But I'd say this is as much on so called big tobacco as it is some of the bigger vape players. I might get some flak for this, but the big ecig names aren't going to be affected by this. Let me re-phrase that, the board members running the large corporate run ecig ventures are looking at this a different way: If they make it through PMTA and companies like NJOY and BLU have the resources to do so (Remember Blu is owned by Lorillard aka Newport/Camel) and all the little guys in this wild west market finally drop out, it's a de facto monopoly. They'll make their money back. There's a huge market out there that hasn't switched and if the only option is say NJOY or Blu (respectively) they'll probably make the switch. (After all if they've never tried any of the devices we've used, they won't know the difference anyway.) Just wait for a decade to pass by and new vapers won't recall or even know any of this happened. Thing is, there's a ton of arm chair vapers "up in arms" about this. But there are few, as with most changes in this country, that'll actually go out and do something about it. Sure we've got the big Youtubers/Podcasters/Cassa etc but those guys can only do so much. (and respect to all of them for their efforts) But It's really a power by numbers and the numbers generally rely on these few organizations as their voice. The vaping market is a billion dollar industry these days, that money comes from a whole lotta people. If those people took to march in front of the FDA/Congress or went old school Boston Tea Party mode, I'd imagine **** would hit the fan and we'd get something done. But, everyone's busy, there's a new XBOX game coming out and complacency remiss is probably the country's new motto. The most common comment I usually read on different forums is "well I've been stocking up, I'm good" and that's that. (Edit: I should note it's 4am PST. I tend to type aloud if you will so my opinions could be totally off base, but I don't pre PR my posts to the disappointment of the VT marketing guy )

All good questions. You basically nailed it on the head. Those planning to stay and those who believe they'll pass PMTA are likely going to speak it fairly loud. If not simply for the fact it proves they managed to somehow get through the PMTA process which I can assure you is stringent. Those not willing to stick around will probably stay quiet for fear they'll lose customers. On the flip side, some companies we've got wind are going through PMTA are staying quiet about it. (These are the really big guys. There is no official step by step but they're using some more traditional methods to get a head start. They've got huge budgets) The main reason is that anyone who can obtain PMTA has a major marketing advantage, so, they really don't want to offer up any sort of support clues to the smaller guys on how to make it through the process. (The larger players). What this has really done is ensured big players, especially those backed by big tobacco obtain a de facto monopoly in the US. I've always had a feeling it'd likely go this way. Kill the competition through legality and regulation. Companies like NJOY, Blue, etc are all very likely to move forward without much issue. They've been building up resources for years with huge supply lines. I'd imagine that some of the larger liquid companies who saved or invested their money are likely to stick around. But without knowing how much some of these guys made it's hard to say. For hardware companies like Kanger Tech & Aspire are planning to push through the PMTA process. Their biggest concern is that because they are Chinese based that the FDA won't work with them. Most however are eager, willing and financially capable of making it through all of this. For us personally, we're not 100% sure at the moment. (Thus why there's a lot of focus on Vapor Talk Asia and Vapor Talk Europe, which is a shame because those are potential jobs forced away from here..) We've got our products already our for testing and we've started the pre application phase. We're still mulling some things through with our investors but Vapor Talk's Black Line alone could cost 6 million USD to push through PMTA - with no guarantee it'll pass. And it's only 5 flavors! the 6th being reserved for outside markets. (Prince of Jazz) If our application fails, we pay and repeat until the FDA gives us the greenlight. 3 runs could cost upwards of 18 million dollars. Incredible. If you want to stay up to date on who is going and who is staying I'd suggest just staying on the forum. (ECF is another good source of info) I took a back seat role for a few years but these days I've hit the ground running and staying pretty well up to date. I'll start up video/podcasts shortly and will do my best to keep everyone here in the loop on whatever I managed to find out. Roger's in Beijing and usually keeps me up to speed on how little China is progressing with the FDA.

In theory you should be able to buy hardware into 2018 without too much issue. (no new products but what's available now should still be available. That is unless a state law etc gets in the way) But there are more upcoming regulations that I didn't post. For example liquid manufacturers/producers/mixers will need to supply the FDA with their ingredient lists by February through the PMTA application process. If vendors white label using a 3rd party source, they'll need to ensure their source files their ingredient list to the FDA. While the enforcement won't happen right away the deadline is Feb for large manufactures and August 2017 for small mixers/manufactures. There's a little leniency while vendors/manufactures take time to figure out the process, but that time is limited and enforcement will eventually happen. In the coming months/next year or two if you're favorite liquid mixer or manufacturer isn't planning on becoming compliant, expect their products to come off the shelves. We created Vapor Talk's black label line for this very reason. (Thus why it took so long to release) Vapor Talk will start working with the FDA in a month or two. (We're undergoing a huge process at the moment to prepare for the PMTA though I won't yet publicly comment on that) We've already started the process with the European Commission for TPD. The process and cost is absolutely unbelievable. But every order in the VT store, helps push us forward! I picked a great time to come back into the fold huh?

Topic created for "Understanding the FDA August 8th, 2016 Regulations" blog post. If you haven't already done so, please read my blog post here: http://www.vaportalk.com/understanding-the-fda-august-8th-2016-regulations-vaping-industry/

You're welcome. The grip is going to start tightening without a doubt but this won't immediately affect consumers. (At least not on the scale your sister was talking about) But expect to see some products drop off the shelves. I'm actually amending a few things on the blog post and will post back here once updated. EDIT: Blog post updated to reflect a few corrections.

To find out what's going to kick in on Monday August 8th, please see the following blog post I created here: http://www.vaportalk.com/understanding-the-fda-august-8th-2016-regulations-vaping-industry/

Not yet though the changes will start to kick in. It's taken me almost this entire time to wrap my head around the coming regulations. (Our legal time drafted up a summery for us finally) I'll likely created a podcast in the next week or so explaining the entire process that takes place between now and 2019. (I'll upload it to the Youtube channel and here once complete) Give me just a moment and I'll whip up a new post breaking down what everyone can expect (It'll take me ten minutes)

Came across this little gem today

I dunno, Sean and I were pretty entertaining back in the day

Thanks! I was right back on my computer and Deborah told me to get off lol "but...but I lub them"

Hey Guys, So I just returned from little China (what a trip...) and wanted to make sure everyone knows I didn't disappear. I'm going to read through this thread again some I'm refreshed and will see what we can't get order in and in stock by next week. Give me a moment to refresh and I'll get it done

Fantastic, I'm glad you like it Spread the word and we'll spread the samples. And if you ever have any issues in the store, feel free to email me directly c-h-r-i-s@v-a-p-o-rtalk.com (remove the dashes, that's just for the spam bots)

I'm not sure I could get genuine's in at that price but I could probably locate something of similar quality Just an FYI I'm getting ready to fly out in a day so if I go MIA I'll see if I can't order these in the moment I return (If Evan in the warehouse doesn't beat me to it)

From what the woman on the phone was saying (I had Roger translating) They no longer manufacture them but there is stock floating around (though how much they're unsure) It would seem at least that the majority of the coils available are clones. The coils we'd get in should be the same as FT as a few calls confirmed we're getting them from the same source. So long as everyone is ok with that, I'll go ahead and order them I figure we can carry a few hundred packs and see how it goes.

Here and there

Sub Forum added

ok So I just wanted to come back and make a note about the Horizontal coils. The supplier I was speaking with was unable to verify that the Kanger serial codes checked out. So I called Kanger and asked if they are still making the horizontal coils and they are not. So FastTech is likely selling clones and the only thing we'd be able to carry in the store are clones. That's not to say there's anything wrong with them just an FYI. Thoughts?

I agree completely, I'd like to see more US products available but the funny thing is, in the retail store for a while we carried a wide array of US products. (Not listed online) They naturally had higher prices because the cost is higher and I'd say 80% of the customers (except the diehard loyal US supporters) all opted for the Chinese brands as (at least these days) they offer a pretty dependable product. I think the whole PMTA ordeal has also likely killed off potential here in the US which is a sad, sad state of affairs. At any rate though I'll get these order in tonight, they should be here mid next week and while most of you are stocked up, the price should be reasonable for future orders. (and I'll get anything else in request fairly quick if I'm notified)

I wrote a reply and removed it. I need more coffee. I will get the horizontals ordered in ASAP EDIT OK So I just got off the phone with little China and I can get these stateside in about a week. (Thanks to Roger who's out in Beijing right now) We can sell them retail for roughly $1.25-$1.50 stateside (Free shipping if you hit the 50 threshold) Thoughts? I really want to do my best to get prices that suit everyone here on the forum and I'll do my best to make it happen. If we get them really moving through the warehouse we can probably bring it down as low as 90c/piece stateside but would need to essentially order a truck load. (Which I'm fine with) If I can work with everyone here they'll move through quickly enough.